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2016 Rio Olympic Games : Day-9 (19th August) - WS & MD Gold Medal, WS Bronze Medal, MS Semifinals

Discussion in 'Olympics 2016 - RIO' started by CLELY, Aug 18, 2016.

  1. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    I'm asking you who is better :

    -2 WC titles in odd year vs only 1 WC ?
    then why you left it unaswered until now ? that is really a nice joke :p

    - I'm asking you, who is GOAT using your analogy :
    Marin or WHY ?
    ZN / ZYL or JFN / CP ?

    then why you find it so difficult to answer until now ?

    -from WS GOAT to one of the all time great (even you can't prove Marin is already one of all time great), that is the best joke :p
     
  2. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    2004 Thomas Cup in Jakarta
     
  3. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Fortune...who is WHY? I don't think I heard of such a badminton player:p:D
     
  4. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Fortune...I agree with you LD is a GOAT...but I don't recall LD ever winning women world and OLY championship:p:D
     
    other and visor like this.
  5. ssj100

    ssj100 Regular Member

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    Man, you crack me up. Made my day hehe. But at least he's consistent with his mis-interpretation of my statements hehe.
     
  6. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    Sorry, I forgot to reply to this one...

    I must admit, that I don't know. And you're absolutely right, that getting good sparring partners is a very important area, and one that is difficult for a player from a non-badminton country.

    My guess is that:

    1) We're forgetting about Beatriz Corrales, who is approx. same age as Marin, and did make it into top20 last year (dropped a bit since then). She is the primary sparring partner for Marin (and a 5 or 6 time runner up in the Spanish nationals).

    2) Spanish MS players, such as Pablo Abian, but more likely some f the lower ranked MS players: http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/r...472&ogid=D88B163B-0895-47FD-87D1-F8FA5AD417F8

    3) The youngsters (there are some young promising players starting to emerge in Spain), probably they get to visit the national center once in a while, for their own development, and to provide some variation for Marin:
    http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/profile/overview.aspx?id=BA050564-3365-4552-BA07-9A960CB4F083
    http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/profile/overview.aspx?id=D46DDC15-A234-462D-8777-6F2D03C7471E
    http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/profile/overview.aspx?id=6ED8C119-6D8E-4DE1-B4FB-89287FA413F8

    4) Europe is not as big as China. In fact, the entire Europe is so much smaller than China, so mixing up players from the different countries is probably easier, than it is to gather players from all over China into one training center. For that reason, my best guess is, that Marin have the occasional training camps with players from other countries. I gt no clue for WS, but I know that even in Denmark where we have plenty of top MS players, they do invite a lot of foreign players to participate in sessions leading up to the big tournaments. To mix it up. I've seen Zwiebler, Ouseph, Evans, and others joining such "European" training sessions, in the lead up to AE, WC and OG.

    As for the training/coaching style for Marin, I know that Fernando Rivas have a unique approach, which differs from the traditional Asian (Chinese) way of doing things. His background is also a bit different. He was a very good player himself, but not at all top-flight. I never think he won a Spanish national for one. Instead, his background is that he took a masters degree in sports science, and have been around many European countries to learn and sharpen his skills - it is said that he speaks 8 different languages. Now, his science has always been applied to badminton, so trying to develop badminton training and coaching techniques seems to have been his target all along.

    I can't claim to know the details of his methods at all, but so far, from what I've heard, some of the ideas and approaches he applies, seem a bit similar to what we're doing in Denmark.

    Anyway, the Spanish national center are ding camps for internationals, I have no clue who's attending or what level of players come by - but nevertheless, they are trying t build the SIBA to become more than just Marin's playground. I don't think we should consider Spain a non-badminton country anymore :)

    http://www.badminton.es/file/455794/?dl=1

    Here's a very good and detailed article about Fernando Rivas' career and approach. It's a couple of years old, so it doesn't take into account the last two years success of Marin and the run up to the Olympics. Needless to say, it has grown a bit since then:

    http://badmintoneurope.com/cms/default.aspx?clubid=4685&cmsid=239&pageid=5381&m=1501213

    ----

    BTW: There's also another former Spanish Olympic WS player being part of the team around Marin. For the love of god, I simply cannot recall her name now. She's doing all sorts of things, but mainly data analysis. I think she's also feeding in practice, etc.
     
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  7. mafan

    mafan Regular Member

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    Thanks, FeatherBlaster. Very interesting article. Fernando Rivas certainly deserves the success he has enjoyed as a coach and I wish him and his charges continued success. Others can learn from him.

    Five paragraphs from the end of the article, he said, "It is true that we are so far missing strong male players in comparison to Pablo Abian, but the truth is that he has got much attention and funding for a long time, preventing the rest to develop properly, which has probably been a bad strategy from our side." I follow Malaysian badminton and I think this is a problem Malaysia also has as I believe much of their resources and attention is poured onto Lee Chong Wei to the detriment of the younger male singles players. Things appear to be changing now in light of the impending retirement of LCW though I wish he would stick around for the Tokyo Games.
     
  8. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    I have the same opinion that we should not consider Spain a non-badminton country. Rather up n' coming one, but still nowhere near traditional powerhouses. I mean the number of official players with registration was around 7000 in 2014 (don't know what's the number now) and federation's budget wasnt even 1 mil. €. But from what can i read they have been implementing very good coaching stracture in all levels from regional to national one, and even with limited resources (budget for 2016 was little under 2 mil. €) have been growing very fast.

    Only Denmark has done better in juniors on european level. They have male and female european junior champions and european mix team junior champion in 2015 witch they converted in bronze on European female championship (Needless to say that the team was full of teenagers with 2 exeptions - Marin and Corrales). For them is just a question of sustainability and increasing resources with should't be a problem with Oly. gold and lot of exposure. If you read some of the spanish articles you would find out that Caro's gold was the most safe and expected medal by public from whole expedition and her final was second most watched event only second to basketball vs USA. Even tennis singles and doubles of Nadal didn't have that much people watching them and he's sorta sport's legend back there. So i think badminton in Spain and Europe as a whole is on the good path.

    Add) Yeah and from what I know she doesn't train in Denmark but rather in Thailand with Ratchanok and in Indonesia before big events.
     
  9. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    I think latest figure was 8000+ and still rising. After OG they're probably looking at 10.000 soon, if the capacity is there.

    As for players coming to Den, that was primarily MS. But I know that JOJ went to Germany for a similar camp last year in the lead up to AE.

    In WS, Den currently doesn't have the players to draw sparring partners...
     
  10. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    Pretty much same argument can be applied to Chen Long. He had superb 2015 and could't win anything big in first part of 2016 until Rio. Champions deliver when it matters. WSX and WYH won against Marin but did they win anything after they beat her ? No. Only Okuhara has converted it in AE but NO peaked simply too soon, same with Ratchanok. When you look at record between Carolina and Li Xuerui, it maybe looks quite even with 3-3, but Li Xuerui couldnt beat her when it mattered. WC 14, Malaysia open final n2015 and now Rio SF. Li could only beat her in early rounds prior to 2014. ____ And Marin has same H2H with pretty much everybody from top. Saina has 5-4 record against Caro but most important matches AE 15 and WC 15 she lost. Same with WSX - beat her 4 or 5 times but couldnt replicate it when it mattered most WC 14 and Australian and French SS final. ___ I think that only player that can consistently match her is NO if she's 100 % match fit and injury freeware and Intanon because she has small edge in style of play but even then it is not straightforward. H2H 4-1 for May but 3 last victories were 90 epic marathon rubbers with Marin first win in QF of AE16 in 2 straightforward games.
     
  11. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Not quite. First, as you've said Chen Long had a superb 2015, which year was Carolina Marin dominant to a similar extent (2015 perhaps? Still not comparable)? Second, all three big titles, namely 2xWC and 1xOG, Chen Long won was by overcoming none other than one of the all-time greats,LCW, no less whilst Lin Dan during the same period was either on leave(absent WC'14) or off his prime(in fact, he's a completely different player, negatively). Third, Chen Long's H2H records against almost all his main rivals were more convincing , even despite his age and maturity differences with his two greatest archrivals who happened to be much older than him in badminton terms, meaning most of CL's preceding or earlier losses were incurred in the early stage of his career. Fourth, and prominently, Chen Long's exploits at Rio'16 was much more impressive en route to capturing the gold medal, no elaboration necessary.

    To sum up, in WS there is simply, for all practical purposes, neither a Lin Dan, no way, nor LCW equivalent, and I 'd hasten to add, not even a Chen Long counterpart. To be fair, CM is still only 23, let's give her another 3 or 4 years before we start making any such comparisons; it's early days yet.
     
    #2071 Justin L, Sep 17, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2016
  12. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    I wonder why are their achievements in 2015 not comparable. Chen Long won 6 SS titles and succesfully defended World Championship while Marin also defended her title and won 5 Superseries. And both of them didn't win anything substantial up until Rio in 2016 if you don't count European Championship for Caro where level of competition is not comparable with WC or SS tournaments. I don't know about Chen Long's heath but Marin had plenty of injuries since her Hong Kong SS up until Australian open from which she withdraw.

    And Chen Long H2H against LCW and Lin Dan is very good but not that impressive when you add context to it. He only leveled is up with LCW in Rio (13-13 I think) with many big wins from the past couple of years when LCW already past his prime and I don't think he can do the same with Lin Dan. LCW is still above everyone else but Chen Long and Lin Dan to extention but already 33 years old. The way Lin Dan and LCW are sustaining very high level of performance at very old age (in sports terms) is already a small miracle. Chen Long is simply in his prime phisically and his other opponents other than the two legends are online young guns like Momota (who could't participate) and Axelsen who very young and are pretty much in same position as Chen Long 4 or 5 years ago. I would be curious if Chen Long is able to compete with them when he will be 32 or 33 y. o.
     
  13. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    And not to mention the Ji Xinpeng analogy is completely wrong because he won "just" Olympic gold and after that he was plagued by injuries and retired 1 or 2 years later. Marin won 3 consecutive major tournaments in as many years in the strongest era of WS so far.

    In regards to 2015 season i rate her achievements above Chen Long because she leveled record number of SS titles per year and defended WC title after she recoved from injury. Remember she couldn't train for couple of weeks before Jakarta and was only 80 % in terms of fitness and then in R16 she sustained ankle injury. To win the title she won 3 rubbers with all 4 games longer than hour and in-form Saina waiting in the final.

    All that is just my opinion an you can think differently but this constant downplaying of ones achievements is borderline insulting towards sportsmen. Same with Lin Dan - LCW semifinal in Rio. How can anybody say that Lin Dan lost because he didn't want another gold or wasn't motivated enought after watching him saving 3 mpts with some incredible skills.
     
  14. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    In the first place, why did you take so long to start a conversation with me and without taking into account the context in which I posted that comment about Ji Xinpeng,clearly not intended as an analogy, following the many exchanges of and between others related to it ?

    Anyway, reluctantly as I said in parenthesis Marin's 2015 achievements may come close to Chen Long's, but I justifiably thought not quite because Chen Long had to contend with Lin Dan whom he beat twice and LCW in WC'15, the two players of whom there's no equivalent in WS. (What about 2014 for Marin?).

    As for Chen Long's H2H records, I made it clear it was remarkable against all his main rivals, not only LCW and LD. Even wrt to LCW, I pointed out that most of CL's losses occurred when CL was in the early stage of his career, far from his prime. How many players could strike up a couple of victories vis-a-vis LCW even in his 'old' age ? Contrast that with Marin's losses, 3x to WSX, 2x to WYH, 3x to Nozomi (of which 2x occured in Dubai SSF'15 alone), 1x to Saina, 1 x to Sindhu, 1x to Akane Y prior to the Olympics, let alone her negative H2H with many of her main rivals (check it out).

    Precisely, LCW in his 30s still loses rarely to anyone else, simply amazing, which make Chen Long's achievements in comparison to Marin's much more commendable, and I'm not even mentioning other worthies like LD *who had an unflattering 2015), Kento Momota, Viktor Axelsen, JOJ, CTC, etc - against all of whom, excepting LD obviously, Chen Long holds a positive H2H. Whether CL past 30 could as well as LCW in his 30s, we just don't know, it's beside the point.

    Well, if you think I'm downplaying Marin's achievements which is borderline insulting to you when I believe I'm putting it in proper perspective, I should say you're overrating her and pushing it by comparing her to Chen Long's; at least you didn't go so far as to make comparisons as some do with LCW's, let alone with Lin Dan's who is absolutely out of her league.

    Like I said, give Marin another 3,4 years, it's early days yet, definitely. Btw, I'd advise you not to play up her so-called injury woes. Otherwise, some people would like to do the same for the injury and/or health problems of others like Saina Nehwal's, Intanon Ratchanok's, Tai TY's, LXR's, WYH's, Nozomi Okuhara's, P V Sindhu's (who else's?), I think you get my point. Enough said.
     
    #2074 Justin L, Sep 18, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2016
  15. Baddyforall

    Baddyforall Regular Member

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    Carolina Marin won Gold. But if I am not wrong , I felt like as if she had an easy path to the finals than Sindhu. Just my opinion. I m not diminishing her achievement. On paper, she is world no.1 and it will look like everybody on her path should be easy. But she did not meet whom she was suffering regularly to. And whom she met were not in best condition either. Sung hi hyun and Li Xuerui , both of them did not perform well due to 'out of form' and 'injury' respectively.
     
  16. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    Well she had to face defending champion Li Xuerui on her way who played well up until 18-16 in G2.
    I know what you mean, but rather than that Carolina's path was easy (pretty much everybody from top 5 could face 2 -3 top 10 opponents before final), Sindhu had it hard because of bad draw which is based on ranking which are based on points.
    She has has to be more consistent on SS level if she doesn't want hard opponents very early on.
     
  17. racketman123

    racketman123 Regular Member

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    Marin would have beaten anyone in the competition in the forms they were in.
     
  18. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    I'm not sure why i was starting conversation with you. I guess I was just little bit bored. The thing is your comments on Ji Xinpeng work as an analogy whether you like it or not. And I believe their context is fairly simple it was a fluke or 1 time thing when good player had exelent form in 1 tournament and didn't back up his victory. When somebody uses it alongside Marin (read as Fortune in past 15 pages) he sounds just ridiculous because she backed it up multiple times and came back from injuries. Something Ji Xinpeng couldnt do.
    And this is arguably the strongest WS era ever when you have up to 10 players who are easily capable of winning SS type level tournament on their day and pretty much anybody can beat each other. Therefore H2H doesn't mean much. Titles is what matters. Example - WSX beat 3x against Marin yet didn't win single major title since French open 2014 and was beaten every time when it mattered - Australian open final, French open final and WC 2014 QF. That is pretty much defintion of champion. Winning when it matters. Something even probably the best shot maker there was, LXR, could never do. She is pretty much female LCW only 1 major gold more in her resume. That's why H2H is meaningless. Seizing opportunity is what matters. Carolina has 8/9 statistics from SS and above level tournament final with 1.SS final being her last defeat so far.
    And regarding injury I wasn't downplaying anybody's win over her. Just simply pointing out that when one is 100% it is hard to beat everybody all the time not to mention beating everybody carrying injury.
     
  19. Bohy

    Bohy Regular Member

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    Anyway I think that covers it completely but if you want to add something please write it in the Korean SS thread. @Justin L
     
  20. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    @Bohy, strange that when I've already lost interest and moved on, yet out of the blue after a long break, you called my attention to what I regarded as your afterthought.

    Anyway, it's irrelevant to the KOR SS'16 thread and I don't think it's right to hijack it for our discussion/debate here.

    Suffice for me to say that in the first place my allusion to Ji Xinpengs' Olympic glory was meant to rebut somebody's view whom I felt placed too much emphasis on winning the OG, it was never meant to draw an analogy with Marin's achievement.

    By the way, just on the OG achievements alone, I justifiably think Ji Xinpeng's far outweighs Martin's considering the opposition he had to overcome, the top 3 seeds , each of whom was highly fancied to take gold, viz, Taufik Hidayat, Hendrawan, Peter Gade l even his teammate, Xia Xuanze, another frontrunner, was there though they didn't get to square off each other.

    Another point is the fact that WS field is so wide open where any of the top 15 to 20 could beat each other on a good day does not prove that it's arguably the strongest WS era ever,highly debatable, only that it's more even, more homogenous, where no one stands out. Marin's negative H2H with many of her rivals is telling and should disabuse you of that thought, not to mention LXR's largely positive H2H with almost all her rivals, except WYH who is 10-8 up against her.

    I repeat, I'd advise against playing up Marin's so-called injury, whether it was during her match with Tai TY in the WC'15 QF where she went on to win not only that match but also the next two for the world title (and then less than a month later she cited that injury as an excuse to withdraw from a SS tournament, strangely), or her injury threat prior to the Rio Olympics. Surely, you don't supposed anybody that injured can beat the others who in a wide open field can beat anyone, do you ? As a reminder, haven't you been following up with the injury and related issues plaguing LXR, WYH, Saina Nehwal, P V Sindhu, Intanon Ratchanok, Tai Tzu Ying, just to name these few ? Never mind.

    Talking about injury problems, didn't LCW has his fair share? Prior to LOG'12, and then prior to ROG'16 where it's reported he's not taking any chances and chose to skip one or two tournaments? But, seriously, who's dwelling on it now, esp when we've all seen how well he performed en route to the finals in both the Olympics? In fact , it'd be disrespectful to LCW and his opponents for anyone to harp on it.

    Finally, just remember, Chen Long for a good part of his career has to deal with both LCW, one of the all-time greats, and The GOAT Lin Dan , at the same time. And, yes, imho, Lin Dan's era is truly the greatest ever, which also includes Taufik Hidayat, Peter Gade, Lee Hyun Il, Bao Chunlai. Chen Long, etc. If you like,I 'd add, Zhao Jianhua - Yang Yang - Morten Frost - Xiong Guobao's era is next.

    Enough, I think I'll stop here (sorry, kind of bored to go over the same grounds), and, if you don't have anything new to add, I'll leave it at that without coming back. Bye.
     

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