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Discussion in 'Indonesia Open / Australian Open 2016' started by CLELY, Jun 8, 2016.
it will be better if GJW is taller than Sonia Cheah...
It made quite a lot of sense actually, considering the fact no player/pair will have 100% winning rate or at his/her/their best every time they play. I'm not trying to belittle TH, LD, or CL, so to speak. But if you emphasize that TH/CL/Chen Jin or even Lin Dan is great player but not LCW, you fall into the typical OG/WC=everything trap. Let the data speak for itself.
Is TH's longevity come close compared with LCW? How many finals have he reached in his career? How many SS/SSP titles he ever won? How long he remained at the top ranking? How many SS/SSP finals had he reached in his career?
That's said. While we did not deny that TH was great to win WC/OG gold medal; we should look at this overall performance over the years.
More importantly, TH is about the same age as LCW; yes he was getting famous early due to his OG/WC medal. Let me give you some statistics.
TH has reached 10 SS finals (0 SSP), winning 1 of them. He was never NO 1 player since the inception of SS. He was unseeded when he won WC & OG; a great achievement indeed, but lower rank indicates poorer performance in world circuit.
In terms of overall performance or longevity, it's not even close.
One of TH's highlight is that he won 6th Indonesia Open titles prior to the inception of SS; while LCW also won 6 Indonesia Open titles after the inception of SS.
And yes, LD has won 62 career titles, having reached 82 career finals. But he did not dominate the world circuit from 2009-2016 for most of the time; he did briefly recapture NO 1 rank in 2012. LD won 33 individual titles from 2001-2008. He was Of course, at once World NO 1 for good reasons. He has reached 29 SS finals, winning 20 of them, including 4 SSP and 1 SSF. Of course, the highlight of his career has been and is always the five WC gold medals and 2 OG medals, which make a whole lot of people overlook his performance over the years.
LCW won 64 career titles, seemingly close to LD, but not really true. Actually, LCW didn't nearly win as much before 2009. Lee won 15 individual titles from 2003-2008. That means he won 49 titles from 2009 until today. He began to occupy the top world ranking for longest period of time since the end of 2008; he first reached the top spot in 2006. He is still World NO 1 today, albeit interrupted by suspension. Having reached 94 career finals, 60 SS Finals (including 16 SSP finals and 4 SSF finals), he won 43 SS titles. It's almost amazing that not winning WC/OG gold medal is somehow indicating a LCW is not a great player. LCW has won 64 titles, yet 43 of them are SS; Badminton Asia Championships 2016 was also graded as SS but typically not counted as one of the SS titles he won. It just shows that Lee was not as dominant earlier in his career. But no doubt he is the dominant player for a long time. That's the reason behind the change of world ranking, in case you wonder.
Looking at the number and statistics, it became clear that Lee's performance changed dramatically after 2008.
Also, mentioning TH is pretty pointless. I'm talking about Lee's dominance over the rest of top 10 players since French Open 2015 until Indonesia Open 2016, which lasted more than half a year; did TH play in international circuit back then or today? He did have 100% winning rate. But that's the past. It did not guarantee his future win.
In case you wonder, comparing the player from different era is pretty pointless, despite there are overlapping of time they played in the world circuit.
By the way, I began to pay attention to statistics thanks to Gill Clark. She often mentioned about it when she commented on top-tier tournaments. No doubt in her mind LCW is one of the all-time great. She said that when LCW was playing in French Open 2015.
"Sometimes people don't want to hear the truth because they don't want their illusions destroyed."
- Fredrich Nietzsche -
INA and MAS rivalry dated from long ago and it's inevitable to compare TH and LCW. That's why sometimes I tease my Malaysian friends "Kite dulok lah" meaning we've already done it before you. While we all have a happy time in kopitiam sipping away and munching on snacks after our gruelling badminton session.
So I was accused of being jealous, then I ask LCW fans, what's is our TH's achievement shy of your Dato for us to be jealous?
So they said Olympics not important, so I ask them, what event you think will really make LYB, Rexy, Frost, PJB asses all on the line?
So they think LCW won't need to prove anything, so I ask them, so you think all their investment for Frost and Hendrawan is for nothing and even LCW himself already set OG and WC as his personal targets?
I must admit if there's anything I'm jealous of is that they "hijacked" Hendrawan on their side. I want to see Hendrawan forging our youngsters like Jonathan in the future.This is of course is very natural, just as also LYD publicly announced that he is jealous of the Japanese for hijacking PJB to their side and he wanted PJB to be on their side.
Of course when we tease our Malaysian friends, there's a sense of hope and encouragement in disguise that they will win it for the first time in LCW because we already had 6 gold ahead of them.
It's just another kopitiam talk by some court cowboys so nothing to be taken to seriously,
Lin Dan will always be considered superior to Lee Chong Wei. 18 World Titles to Zero will never lie.
Classic Team Competition= Individual Achievement... Pointless to speak to those who are blinded by OG/WC medals.
By your logic, Hans-Kristian Vittinghus is superior than LCW.
Nobody has said OG is not important. You do have to look at overall performance from a player. TH and LCW are of the same era from 2003-2013. It's clear that TH made his name known worldwide from WC/OG gold medals. But from 2009-2013, their on-court performance are not even close to be compared. TH has not made much impact on world circuit in general. That is the truth. TH retired in 2013. So, from 2014 onwards, comparing both players DO NOT make any sense.
In LD/LCW case, it's clear that from 2003-2008, LD has achieved much greater success compared with LCW. As a matter of fact, LD's performance did not change much from 2008-2012. The turning point is at the end of 2008, where LCW began to dominate the world circuit, even surpass LD in the number of total titles. In terms of SS finals or titles, they are not even close to be compared. LD's greatest achievement is his 5 WC gold medals and 2 OG gold medals; his longevity of career, spanning 15 years already is amazing. Even though LCW's has similar longevity, but his burst on world stage really comes into astonishing fashion since the end of 2008.
LD's performance in 2015-2016 is not that great, having only managed to reach three SS finals, having the winning rate of 75%; which is much lower than his earlier years. Speak from the data, don't make fan-boy's judgement.
oopps, wrong post.
Data says :
Lin Dan : 2 Olympic Gold, 5 World Championships Gold, 2 World Cup Gold, 5 Thomas Cup Gold, 5 Sudirman Gold, 4 Asian Games Gold
Taufik Hidayat : 1 Olympic Gold, 1 World Championship Gold, 3 Asian Games Gold, 2 Thomas Cup Gold
Chen Long : 2 World Championships Gold, 1 Asian Games Gold, 2 Thomas Cup Gold, 2 Sudirman Cup Gold
Lee Chong Wei : unfortunately currently none of the above (hopefully update coming soon after Rio)
Right now it's pointless to put LCW on par with these guys, not even close.
LCW suppose to have the gold for Thomas Cup in 2014 but his teammates unlike him very strong...
Yeah, I couldn't care less. I'm pretty sure that LCW's result is pretty convincing already. You continued to be blinded by golds, suit yourself.
Haiz, if there were no OG or WC (or even AG, if you like, however, that's unfair to European players) but only the 5 PSS and 7 SS plus 1 SSF annually year after year to fight for, who do you think will win most of these titles ? I bet it will still be Lin Dan, simply because there are no higher goals to aim for, no greater accolades to strive for.
Let me use an analogy. If you were the Emperor, which general will you choose to lead your army? The one who wins most of the battles but loses all the wars or the one who loses the occasional battles but wins every single war ? If you, the Emperor, make the wrong choice, you'll be forced to concede territories and retreat farther and farther back from your enemies, even living on the sea, for safety.
I repeat, LCW is a great player, one of the greatest, and he is Lin Dan's most worthy opponent, perpetual rival among others that include Taufik Hidayat, Peter Gade, Chen Long, Lee Hyun Il, just to name a few in a long list comprising many great players.
But the way you keep trying to defend LCW's position arguing that being WR1 longer and winning more PSS/SS titles count for more while ignoring his underwhelming H2H with Lin Dan and diminishing the stature of Lin Dan as the holder of 2 OG, 5WC not to mention 4 AG and the rest, no less significant than LCW's - is simply untenable. Not only do you belong to the tiniest minority, the great majority and the real world including the big sponsors as well as some great players who regarded Lin Dan as the best in history, all simply don't agree with you. Of course, you are the 0.01% and entitled to your own opinion, it's your right to freedom of expression but there's no way you can impose your will on the 99.99%. In fact, I'm sure even your beloved idol, LCW, doesn't agree with you, it's obvious , isn't it? So, who are you trying to convince ?
Frankly, I see no point in debating further. Pardon me,you appear to be living in your own world, we can't get into your world, nor can you get out. Let's just leave it at that. Enough said.
Again, talking about hypothetical achievement is pointless. Perhaps you should learn more about sportsmanship. That's the basics of becoming a great player. The four elements of sportsmanship are showing good form, the will to win, equity, and fairness. You have to be a good winner as well as good loser. As long as you step on court, you play to win; not play to lose. All other things are merely excuses.
http://system.bwf.website/documents/folder_1_81/Regulations/GCR/Part III - Section 1A - GCR Appendix 4 - Players' Code of Conduct.pdf
Let me quote those relevant articles for you to make it easier for you to read and understand.
The purposes of (badminton) players' code of conduct are:
1.1 To ensure and maintain an orderly and fair administration and conduct for BWF-sanctioned tournaments, and to protect the players' rights and the respective rights of the BWF, sponsors, and the public;
1.2 To uphold the good name of the BWF and the integrity of the sport of Badminton worldwide.
Players' offence 4.5: Not using one's best effort to win a match
If you continue to claim that Lin Dan is playing to lose, you are defaming Lin Dan. It's that simple. He IS FAR from a great player if you what you claim is true. If Lin Dan played to win, considering the achievement he already got despite not being the most successful Men's Single player of Superseries, he is definitely one of the great players of our generation.
My advice for some people is simple: don't defame Lin Dan.
When you don't work hard or do not show good sportsmanship by not using best effort to win matches, you only have yourself to blame for not having achieved as much. It's your own responsibility to keep yourself motivated to continue to win matches. You have less desire to win tournaments, you should just retire.
That said. I'm not sure that LD deliberately played to lose from the news articles I read. I'm not sure that you can read Chinese. So I do you a favor to do the translation. Pardon me for not being a professional translator.
I translated certain paragraphs.
Wanting to break no-title jinx from Malaysia Open, LD: I want to work harder
LD was asked about his target on Malaysia Superseries Premier, LD said: "I want to have a good performance". LD was asked of the possible encounter with the LCW or his previous loss to World NO 1 CL and if he wanted to have a better result, LD said: "I will work harder".
LD: I want to get my first Singapore Open title, CL hopes to make it through to Quarter-Final
On April 12, LD attended Singapore Open press conference, he said that he never won a Singapore Open title before, he hoped that he could make a breakthrough this year. The stadium of Singapore Open is very drifty, affecting the performance of many players; he hoped that he can play better.
Even though LD's title drought continues this year, he failed to capture any Southeast Asia SS/SSP; I respected his desire to win. This shows great sportsmanship, in contrast to somebody's claim.
Umm....HKV doesn't have 18 World titles. 18 is not 1,2 or 3... 18 is 18....And I don't even want to talk about Asian Games....LCW is probably Top 10 of all time but he is no LD.
It's not that I denied LD's achievement or somehow claimed that LD's not a great player. I'm merely talking about the data and achievement from the record book. As far LD's individual achievement is concerned so far, as of June 11, 2016, that is 82 career finals, 62 career titles, five world titles, two Olympic gold medals, 19 SS titles. Most of his SS titles were won from 2007-2012. I am not sure that why one should count team competiton's win as individual honor. It's already a great achievement. Why should you enlarge his achievement with the so-called 18 world titles?
Officially, BWF only recognizes that winner of World Championship as World Champion.
http://system.bwf.website/documents/folder_1_81/Regulations/Major-Events/Part III - Section 7A - Regulations for World Championships.pdf
Interestingly, BWF did not mention that World Champion is the best player. Not even Olympic Champion is World Champion. They are different titles according to BWF's regulation. That player is the reigning world champion until the next World Championship is held. The other thing being mentioned about WC is the prestige. Becoming a world champion is the great honor. So, LD is the reigning Olympic champion and former world champion.
Even if LCW were to win Olympic title this year, officially, he still would not be world champion. That's how the rule is.
As far as Thomas/Uber/Sudirman Cup is concerned, no official title is given to the winners.
http://system.bwf.website/documents/folder_1_81/Regulations/Major-Events/Part III - Section 2 - Regulations for Thomas Cup & Uber Cup.pdf
http://system.bwf.website/documents/folder_1_81/Regulations/Major-Events/Part III - Section 3 - Regulations for Surdirman Cup.pdf
Well, LD himself associates his name with the 18 World titles. According the him,the most precious one to him is 2004 Thomas Cup.
Let's hope Lin Dan wins the Olympics and LCW wins every SS from now on till he retires.
The king of Olympics vs king of super series.