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2nd class in China, top class in the World

Discussion in 'Swiss Open 2006 / German Open 2006' started by 2cents, Jan 7, 2006.

  1. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    China sent its smal, 2nd class team to this year Swiss open. None of its players seem to be even in National's Thompson cup squad or Uber cup squad. Many players even had to play in the qualification round first in Swiss open, and also the size of this team is quite small (for example only 1 new scratch in Mixed double) comparing to huge and high profile repsentations from Malaysia, Korea, Denmark, England,....

    With this small, spare tires, China can still dominante in this year Swiss Open. Those players, 2nd class in China, but still the best in the world. They claimed most finalists and semi-finalists. By yesterday, semi-finalists distributions were:

    China: 6 semi-finalists in 5 events
    Malaysia: 4 semi-finalists in 3 events
    England: 3 semi-finalists in 1 event
    Denmark 2 semi-finalists in 2 events
    Korea 2 semi-finalists in 2 events

    Many people predicted China will be halted in semis, But now even the semis is not finished, check again:

    China: 4 finalists + (with 1 pair withdraw, and 1 pair in fighting)
    Malaysia: 2 finalists (1 pair advanced w/o fighting)
    England: 1 finalist + (1 pair in fighting)
    Denmark: 0 + ( 1 pair in fighting)
    Korea: 0 + (1 pair in fighting)
     
    #1 2cents, Jan 7, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2006
  2. other

    other Regular Member

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    indeed they are having a very good outing, however it must be noted that the very top indonesian players were not there to challenge in the mens' and mixed events. we all know the chinese dominate the ladies events, they've got the LD title and runner up already, even with pretty much the full field present (apart from the other chinese pairs). Also no excuses in WS, such as "playing loads of chinese players just to get to the final" :p

    the semifinal spot for sang/zheng is not too bad, but that would be unlikely if the other top players were around. good performance by xia, wonder how well he is able to cope with LCW tomorrow.....considering that people were commenting on PG playing near his best, his semi final victory is quite an achievement.

    mixed...well even without the walkover they would have lost i think to nathan and gail. however they were consistent enough to reach the semis, which does take some doing even if 3 dangerous pairs are missing.

    all in all, a good start...hope the 1st team players are improving as well:D
     
  3. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    I agree with you that ina has Taufik and high quality men's doubles. For mixed doubles, some ina players ranked high, but not that competitive. With many retirements and adjusts on both China and Korea, Ina XD merged a little bit, but their level of playing has not improved much.
     
  4. chibe_K

    chibe_K Regular Member

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    Thats true with other sports that China dominates such as table tennis and diving. I just saw on TV few days ago a sport documentary about Chen Liang, one of China's top divers. He made a comment "its more competitive and challenging to compete in China national championship than World Championship because there are too many good divers from China....". I am not surprised that will become more obvious in badminton in the future that China is able to send its second class national squads and still be able to dominate the event.
     
  5. DinkAlot

    DinkAlot dcbadminton
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    While it is true, Team China is impressive, you have to remember China has ~1.3 billion people to work with. If you want a truly impressive country, check out Denmark with a total population of ~5.4 million; they put out some seriously good players relatively speaking.
     
  6. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    What you said sounds reasonable but actually not. You'd better compare China with the whole Europe plus American Continent plus African Continent. Are the populations comparable? China is still much better than those together. Count the total gold modals in all tournaments, China may be better than all rest of the world.

    On the other hand, China even with its 1.2 billion population, but send only a small participants in the tournaments. If they occupy 25% of the entries, they will claim more.

    Denmark, even though a small country in Europe, but strong badminton power house even in Europe. Let's look a city in China, Nanjing, which is not that good in badminton. In China, people learnt playing badminton from Chinese returned back from Indonesia since 50s. Those people live in GuangDong (Canton) and Fujian, so Canton and Fujian are always strong in badminton. But a city like Nanjing in the north, less population than Denmark, no body knew how to play badminton before. Even the professionals learnt how to play by reading badminton books for kids. Such a city, has produced Yang Yang(a Nanjing local native), and trained Zhao jianhua(suburb of Nanjing), those two most talented players in history. Others including Sun Jun (Word Champ), his wife Ge Fei (probably the most unbeatable, I know not perfect) and Gu Jun(unbeatable), and a lot more in history. Even today, Lin Dan was long time trained in Nanjing, and Zhang Jun (world champ, twice Olympics Champs), Cai Yun too, Chen Jin (new up rising star) was not born in Nanjing, but raised there. I cannot remember all of them, just name a few. Anyway, I think, just a city like Nanjing (not a badminton city in China) has achieved more than Danes. Guangdong (Canton) and Fujian, those badminton provinces/cities must be much better. Many small regions in China could be more impressive than Denmark, which is, of course, the most impressive in Europe.

    Forget to mention, there are a lot players could be even better, but limit to the opportunities to play internaitonal, their names are not known. A rich and free country, like Denmark, players have much, much more opportunies than those hidden talents in the schools of Nanjing.

    I can only say something about Nanjing, because I don't know other cities. I was graduated from the same high school as Yang Yang. I learnt some badminton from my high school coach Chen who coached Yang Yang before. Coach Chen's son Chen JB was also a very talented player, because of many reasons he gave up. If Chen JB had been born in Denmark, he world have been a world champ probably. If we say Denmark provides more opportunities, definitely! if we say Danes are the most impressive, my answer is no.
     
    #6 2cents, Jan 7, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2006
  7. block306

    block306 Regular Member

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    Absolutely correct on Denmark and for that matter, even more so, NZ. With 3 million people, they have more Olympic medals/residents and excelled in so many sports at world class level.

    China's situtaion with badminton is reminiscent of Indonesia in the 80's with men singles. There were just too many good men single players then that players of fabulous ability could not get into and stay in their national team (such as Fung Permadi, who went on to great things with Taiwan).
     
  8. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    I feel you have to look at it in more detail.

    First let's take a look at the women's events.

    In WD, Zhang Dan/Zhang Yawen and Wei Yili/Zhao Tingting were all top class players anyway. They could even trouble Gao/Huang. Zhang Dan/Zhao Tingting should be no different except they have to get used to each other. Du/Yu (the second seeds) are also a formidable pair and I think this year, they will come into the picture more forcefully. The Chinese WD have so much strength in depth that outside of China, perhaps only Lee KW/Lee HJ can stop them. I am not altogether surprised to see an all-Chinese affair.

    It's almost the same story for WS. Although I am surprised that Pi lost to Zhu Lin, but we now have to think in different terms. Zhu Lin could already be the third singles player for China (in terms of ranking, she is still behind Zhou Mi, but you may be wondering who will take third spot in the Uber Cup team this year). When do we ever look lightly at a Chinese 3rd single? During the times when Zhou was great (and she could still come back), she was expected to win tournaments whenever Zhang and Xie were absent.

    So, that accounts for 3 of the 6 Chinese semi-finalists (and 3 of the finalists as well).

    In the XD, after Zheng/Zhao beat Anggun/Tetty in the opening round (which most of us half expected anyway), are we that surprised that they got to the semi-finals? We all know Zheng and Zhao are good enough players.

    Same goes for MD. Sang/Zheng are not the top MD in China, but being second is good enough.

    Finally, in the MS, I have to say I am surprised Xia got this far. Most of us are pleasantly surprised, but we are not shocked. We know what a legend Xia is. Just because his days seemed to be over, but he is still in prime playing age. Wong CH could also surprise us from time to time.

    In conclusion, China may have sent a second string, but their strength in depth (especially their women) is enough to give a good showing.
     
  9. badMania

    badMania Regular Member

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    Agreed completey with what you have written in your post.

    China's strength and depth in WD is undeniable. They have the world's top 5 players (excluding Lee/Lee). Yang Wei/Zhang Jiewen is almost invisible, with Gao Ling/Huang Sui slightly on the wane now (but still performing). They broke up the two old pairing of Wei Yili/Zhao Tingting and Zhang Dan/Zhang Yawen because Wei/Zhao was also not performing well recently. Despite that, these 2 pairs are world-class standard. Of course, you still have to count the ever-improving Du Jing/Yu Yang. Therefore, even without looking at the draw, its almost certain that the pairs sent to the Swiss Open will at least reach the semi-final with only Lee/Lee the only obstacle to another title.

    I already wrote in my earlier post that Zheng Bo/Zhao Tingting is one of the pair to watch out for this year. It's almost certain that they will reach the top 4 or 5 in no time. Anggun/Yunita had the worst nightmare in drawing them in the first round and once they lost, there's no pairs which can prevent the Chinese pair reaching at least the semi-final.

    As for Sang Yang/Zheng Bo, they are still not as good as Cai Yun/Fu Haifeng. I believe they will lose to any of the top 5 ranked pairs.
     
  10. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    No doubt china has great depth, especially in WD, MS and WS, as for MD and XD i think they have a lot of great pairs, but all the other countries in the world also have their top pairs, MD there is Indonesia with Sigit/Candra, Denmark have Lundgaard/Eriksen and by the looks of it Boe/Mogensen altho we didn't seem them meet any top class (cai/fu, sigit/candra, etc. etc) at the swiss open, but they are young and will improve. JR and Lars also have new partners and i wouldn't be surprised to see them do brilliantly - i think thomas and lars particulary will go up the rankings very quickly..

    in XD - well england proved they have 3 great pairs at the swiss open and two maybe three more on the way. Roberston/Emms were in a league of their own at the swiss open, but Blair/Munt and Clark/Kellog really showed that they can mix it in the top 10 if not the top 5. China have some new pairs, Zhang/Gao seem to be waning at the moment, i've not seen any brilliant results from them recently. but ZHeng Bo/Zhao TT are a good mix, i'm sure they will be the new Zhang/Gao either them or Zhongbo/Jawen. in the rest of the world tho there is obivously Thomas/Kamilla and Jens/Mette from Denmark - not forgetting the new pairs of Lars/Helene and Jonas/Britta - Lars and Helen have already has good results. Lee/Lee from Korea are quite a force too, and of course there's Nova/Liliyana and Sudket and Saralee sitting happily in the top 5 too.

    a great number of brilliant mixed pairings.. i think mixed will be the most exciting battle between the countries this year.. there is certainly no domninant country in that discipline.

    Coops
     
  11. djake

    djake Regular Member

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    Interesting point about mxd.

    Mxd appear to be the most interesting category at the moment. A lot of countries feature prominently in this event. It is always refreshing to see countries like uk / thailand / even new zealand do well and make a nice change from the usual china / denmark / korea / indonesia domination.

    Robertson / Emms are the best in the world now. This combination is interesting because whilst they are both established men and women double players, neither are anywhere near the best in either categories. It just goes to show that with good training and tactical awareness, you can succeed in mixed double. I think Robertson made a very wise choice in concentrating just on mixed double. Why bother having mediocre performances in men doubles when he can have a very realistic chance of achieving gold at the Olympics / world championship ? Perhaps Gail Emms should also consider giving up women doubles (after the Commonwealth Games- where she has a good chance to medal) and saving all her energy on achieving dominance in mxd.
     
  12. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    hmm.. interesting point - but i think it's better for men to concentrate on mixed, but not ladies.. look at Ra, Gao Ling, Zhao Ting Ting.. all top class ladies and mixed players..

    if you look at their partners there aren't many top class men's doubles players there..

    Coops
     
  13. DinkAlot

    DinkAlot dcbadminton
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    How can what I said not be "reasonable"? It's fact: China has ~1.3 billion people and Denmark has ~5.4 million.

    Relatively speaking Denmark is very impressive. If Denmark had ~1.3 billion people to work with, it would dominate everything (based on this ratio). Again, relatively speaking.

    :D
     
  14. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    i think what dink is trying to say is that since china have something like a third of the worlds population, that effectively means that of any set of players for any sport there should be a chinese player for every two other players from around the world..

    this means you would expect to see one or two players / pairs in the top 5 of every discipline and 3 perhaps 4 in the top 10.

    denmark on the other hand with a population of just 5.4 million should be lucky to have one player / pair in the top 15.

    but obviously this is just maths and doesn't take account of training, funding, facilities etc etc..

    but given equivalent ttraining, funding, facilities the number of world class players a country can produce is going to come down to raw materials.. the population of the country.

    hope this settles an argument..

    Coops
     
  15. block306

    block306 Regular Member

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    A couple more points to add to this. Chjina may have 1.3 billion people, 30% of them are in Xinjiang, Tibet, Inner Mongolia and a couple of other places that are extremely poor and with poor facilities. Then there is a nother huge proportion of farmers. So maybe there is only about 700-800 million potentials.
    Of this total, a big chunk of them are more preocuppied in making a living than to excel in sports.
    Comparatively in industrialised countries, the lower level needs are being satisfied so, a great % of the population actually have time and interest to excel in sports.
    So I guessed when one often quote that China has 1/4 of the world population to choose from for its talents, it don't exactly work that way.
    .......just my 2 cents.
     
  16. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    potential is potential..
    just because one country has area's that are 'just' farmland or are very poor does not mean that another countries aren't either..

    denmark and scandinavia in general is mostly unpopulated because of the mountainous terrain, and freezing temperatures.

    so of that tine 5.4 milliion it is perhaps more like 4.5 - 5..

    of that 4.5 - 5 there is guaranteed to be an equal amount that don't take there sport to the elite level..

    China and denmark are easily compared because i believe that they probably share the same funding, facilities and training. But it is remarkable that given the difference in population that denmark has as many world class players as china.

    don't get me wrong - i'm not trying to knock china down a peg or two.. it's just not surprising to me that they dominate the sport..

    it wouldn't surprise me in a few years time if we see china at the top of medals tables for the olympics and other competitions..

    it will slowly catch the other countries of the world at other sports, training facilities will appear for other sports, and china's higher population will take effect.

    india will probably follow soon after since it is also a rapidly developing country with a large population..

    it would be great to see the US use their size to take over the sport - since they have proved themselves capable of doing it in so many other sports....

    altho i suppose in there eyes trying to become top at badminton is like chine trying to become top at baseball...

    hmmm.. now there's an interesting thought..

    Coops
     
  17. seven

    seven New Member

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    In fact, poverty is often an important factor for excelling in sport as sport is seen as the best way of getting a better life.
    In wealthier environments, youngsters are a lot less willing to train hard for their sport and priority is given to studies, as having a pro sport career is seen as not very serious (at least by the parents ;) ).
     
  18. fast3r

    fast3r Regular Member

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    Even so, the talent pool will still be much larger than Denmark's. Don't forget Denmark's population is only 5.4 million which is less than 0.5% of China's. There are probably several cities which are more economically developed which have more people than the whole of Denmark. Look at Shanghai for instance. Its the biggest city in the world with more than 30m people, six times Denmark's population. What's more, parts of this city are looking very modern and upmarket so you can't say that its not industrialised.

    Seven's point is very interesting. In fact I think what they do is send scouts all over China to look at how children work and use their abilities while working on the farms, and if they see potential, the scouts will take the kids off to a training centre regardless of whether they want to or not. This sounds pretty unbelievable and I'm not sure if its true but from what I've heard thats what they do.
     
  19. DinkAlot

    DinkAlot dcbadminton
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    Coops, exactly. :)
     
  20. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    From another point of view, assume that China (1.3b) has to go against the rest of the world (5b). China is 4 times smaller than the rest of the world.

    Sudirman Cup
    MS - 50-50
    WS - China
    MD - ROW (Rest of world)
    WD - China
    XD - 50-50

    Thomas Cup
    MS (Lin, Bao, Chen v Gade, Taufik, Lee CW)
    MD (Cai/Fu, Sang/Zheng v Chandra/Sigit, Danish pair)
    I think it's either 3-2 or 4-1 for ROW.

    Uber Cup
    China 5-0 or 4-1. (ROW not allowed to use players born in China)

    We can sense that China's weakest area is the MD (and even so, they have Cai/Fu). Overall, China is a match for ROW even though 4 times smaller.
     
    #20 hcyong, Jan 9, 2006
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2006

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