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a serving rule question...

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by kwun, Nov 24, 2003.

  1. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    here is yet another question on legality of service and receiving service. let's imagine this situation.

    the server and receiver gets ready. all feet planted firmly on ground. serving backhand, the server prepares by bringing racket and shuttle in front of him. then he draws his racket back to prepare for first forward motion.

    but at this moment, he pauses very briefly after he draws his racket back. the very same moment, receiver anticipated a service and moves his feet. and then the server brings the racket forward in one continuous motion and delivers the service.

    so the question is, is anybody at fault?
     
  2. Blitz

    Blitz Regular Member

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    Pardon me if someone were to serve to me in such a fashion, maybe my racket will fly towards him first :D

    Anyway in this case I think the fault is with the receiver since he move his feet when the server did not even hit the shuttle.
     
  3. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    In my opinion, neither parties have faulted.

    server
    His motion is continuous although there was a pause, the pause duration is reasonable.

    receiver
    this one might generate more opinion but my take is that his body position did not moved. He was just getting a better grip of his foot and not considered a distraction. I often wiggle my foot or readjusting my racket grip during the period of being served. I do not considers non positional related bodily movement as fault . If we count any movement as fault, then i can't even blink or have to hold my breath during the serves? Nahhhhh.
     
  4. badrad

    badrad Regular Member

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    ah com'on cooler - you only hold your breath when you are in the locker room when I take off my court shoes...

    law 9.1.3 specifies only the feet of both the server and receiver must be stationary upon the start of the service. (no reference to holding breath or winking...)
    law 9.4 specifies that the start of the service begins with the first forward motion of the racquet head. the racquet being drawn back would not be considered part of the service, only the forward portion.

    so given those two, what Kwun stated, the receiver actually faulted, as the server has not technically started his service.
     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    Ok badrad, I'll believe you this time. Better to warn me about it next time ;) Nice to know someone actually read that book:D
     
  6. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    actually, i am not sure how exactly to interpret the rules.

    let's go through the relevent rules again:

    9.1.3 some part of both feet of the server and receiver shall remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position from the start of the service (Law 9.4) until the service is delivered (Law 9.5);

    9.4 Once the players have taken their positions, the first forward movement of the server’s racket head shall be the start of the service.

    9.5 Once started (Law 9.4), the service is delivered when the shuttle is hit by the server’s racket or, in attempting to serve, the server misses the shuttle.

    so the beginning of the service is the first forward movement of the racket. the end of the service is when the racket strikes the shuttle.

    ie, technically, the receiver can move his feet up to the point when the racket moves forward, ie. the receiver can move his feet during the pause. but must have finished moving before the racket starts to move forward, otherwise he will be faulted.

    does that interpretation sound right?

    of course the smart server will just go strike the shuttle before the receive plant his feet on the ground again.
     
  7. badrad

    badrad Regular Member

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    i guess the receiver can continue to dance a bit trying to time the server's forward racquet movement. I think losing several points due to a service judge finding this behaviour at fault would quickly correct even the most jittery receiver.

    you do have to be careful with judges, they are all human and errors will occur from time to time, but when a particular receiver or server attempts to breach the boundaries of the rules, often they tend to get onto the bad side of the judges and will get scrutinized just a bit more.
     
  8. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    Some judges would call server's fault - when bringing the racquet and shuttle together with a forward motion, would be interpreted as first forward movement. I think Ricky (or Rexy?) used to serve very quick - the racquet does not seem to have a backswing move.
     
  9. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

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    Re: Re: a serving rule question...

    it depends on how exactly we interpret
    When exactly is "Once the players have taken their positions".

    I believe that it is not only when the players are standing where they want to serve and receive from, but it also includes holding the shuttle out to be hit.

    e.g. for backhand serve
    server and receiver stand in their positions
    server keeps shuttle down by his side
    server moves his racquet forward into position
    (that is a forward movement of the racquet, but it is not the start of the service)
    server moves the shuttle into position (either in front of or behind the racquet)
    (this is when I think "the players have taken their positions")
    server takes backswing (optional)
    server swings forward (the forward movement here is the start of the service)
    server hits shuttle (and the service is delivered)

    e.g. alternate backhand serve
    server and receiver stand in their positions
    server moves the shuttle into position
    server moves his racquet forward into position
    (that is a forward movement of the racquet, and it is the start of the service
    so unless the racquet continues to move forward to hit the shuttle, it is a fault)

    e.g. another backhand serve
    server and receiver stand in their positions
    server moves racquet and shuttle into position at the same time
    (hard to say. best not to do it this way)
     
    #9 Neil Nicholls, Nov 25, 2003
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2003
  10. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    a related observation. anybody noticed the change in how Rikke Olsen prepare for thet service? a couple of years ago, she started bring her racket and shuttle together not forward, but instead, she stretch out her arms to the side first, and then brings the shuttle and racket together to the front from the side as if drawing a semi-circle around her.

    technically, that's not bringing forward and would not have been counted as the first forward movement.
     
  11. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

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    but to answer Kwun
    It depends whether the receiver is adjusting his position, or starting his movement to return the serve.

    If he is adjusting position I think he can call for a let (unless he swings at the shuttle)
    14.1 "Let" shall be called by the umpire, or by a player (if there is no umpire), to halt play if:
    14.1.1 the server serves before the receiver is ready


    if he is starting his movement to return the serve, he has faulted. (if he is moving his feet between first forward movement and striking the shuttle)



    There is one player I sometimes play against (at doubles) who sometimes does the following.
    Sets up facing the net to play a low backhand serve
    Draws his racquet arm allll the way back and turns sideways
    Delivers forehand high serve.

    Now, when he does the huge backswing, I hop backwards.
    I don't see a fault for either side here.
    Server has adjusted his position so receiver should have the opportunity to do the same.


    If the receiver is moving before the start of the service, and the server serves, I don't think he can call for a fault because of 14.1.1

    If the receiver continually does this though, then it should be considered either
    16.4 Delay in play
    or
    9.1.1 "undue delay to the delivery of the service..."
     
  12. Mag

    Mag Moderator

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    According to the rules, it's crystal clear. Neither server not receiver has commited a fault -- provided that the receiver isn't moving his feet during the actual execution of the serve, that is from when the server begins his forward motion until he hits the shuttle.

    On the other hand, in a real life situation, the reciver could easily (and not without good cause) claim a "let" in this case, stating that he was not ready to receive the serve. (Unless he tries to return it, of course!)
     
  13. yonexfanatic

    yonexfanatic Regular Member

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    i don't believe it's a fault. i know a few "A" players here that seem to "move" their feet but they're still planted.
     
  14. Kennyb

    Kennyb Regular Member

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    I remember I use to do something along that line of serving. The problem why I did that is because I use think too hard on how to serve the shuttle. Eventually I overcame that problem by saying to myself something which made a lot of sense to my serving.

    I had a chat to my friend, whose a national player, about it before, he said that it's no ones fault but just abit iritative you are those aggressive players. He also said what kwun said before '...the beginning of the service is the first forward movement of the racket. the end of the service is when the racket strikes the shuttle.'
     
  15. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    hehe. i did that to a guy last night. draw my racket back, paused. and then he moved, lost balance a bit and nearly fell over! i was nice to held the racket there till he recomposed himself and then i striked the shuttle.

    nobody was at fault but it was really funny! haha. :D :D
     
  16. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    QUOTE:"i don't believe it's a fault. i know a few "A" players here that seem to "move" their feet but they're still planted."


    Do they moonwalk?! Is it an illusion?!:D
     
  17. eggroll

    eggroll Regular Member

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    Guy at my club brings racquet back sharply so that it makes a loud sound when the racquet hits his body. The sound startles you and he hits the serve when you've been distracted. Is this legal?
     
  18. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i think this one might fall into the catergory of distraction which the receiver can inform the umpire that it is a distraction to you. If the umpire agreed and warn the server. I guess it's a fault if the server disregard umpire's warning.

    * the above is my opinion, don't have the rule book with me now*
     
  19. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    hm... is this a backhand service? i can't help but to wonder where on his body does he hit... ;)
     
  20. eggroll

    eggroll Regular Member

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    Ha, ha Kwun. He does indeed serve bh and he contacts himself just left of centre on the top of his thigh. The sound is magnified by the fact he gets the strings and frame to really womp his shorts then starts his forward motion.
     

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