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ABC Trainers: Is it a silly mistake or lies...?

Discussion in 'Arcadia Badminton Club ( ABC )' started by endut, Apr 1, 2009.

  1. endut

    endut Regular Member

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    I am just passing along my friend's disappointment, who trusted his son to be trained by trainers in ABC.
    According to him, his son trained twice a week and almost NEVER skipped any scheduled for almost two years
    (the father was always there when his son was in training).

    Over the weekend, I watched his son played against another ABC young player.
    I could not believe his son was playing very "bad". It was a kindergarten level of achievement compared to what
    I would believe if his son was really training for two years consistently.

    So, I talked to another senior player in the gym and asked him, if he knew any good badminton trainer in ABC.
    His recommendation was to check the credibility of the trainer (posted on abadminton.com) and also checked with others.

    Well, the list of ABC trainers achievements were great (based on abadminton.com), but when I did a little
    research, the claims of achievements of the trainers were different compare to Wikipedia.com

    Example:

    Ingrid Ying Chen
    Claims as Winner -
    1996 - Gold - Russian Open
    1995 - Gold - Polish Open
    1995 - Gold - Russian Open
    1994 - Gold - China Open
    1994 - Gold - Hong Kong Open
    1993 - Gold - Asia Cup
    1993 - Gold - Thailand Open
    1993 - Gold - German Open
    1993 - Gold - French Open
    1993 - Gold - Danish Open
    1992 - Gold - China Open
    1992 - Gold - Hong Kong Open
    1990 - Gold - *Polish Open Ladies Single
    * Ladies Single. All the rest are Ladies Doubles.

    Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Badminton_tournaments)
    1996 - Russian Open: Women's Doubles: Helene Kirkegaard & Rikke Olsen of Denmark
    1995 - Polish Open: Women's Doubles: Ema Erwati Indarti Isolina of Indonesia
    1995 - Russian Open: Women's Doubles: Chen Ying & Peng Xingyong of China
    1994 - China Open: No data/ information (Wikipedia skipped this year)
    1994 - Hong Kong Open: No data/ information (wikipedia skipped this year)
    1993 - Asia Cup: No data/ information ( wikipedia skipped this year)
    1993 - Thailand Cup: Ge Fei & Gu Jun of China
    1993 - German Open: Finarsih & Lili Tamp of Indonesia
    1993 - French Open: Yao Fen & Lin Yanfen of China
    1992 - China Open: Yao Fen & Lin Yanfen of China
    1992 - Hong Kong Open: Nong Qunhua & Zhou Lei of China
    1990 - Polish Open: Chen Ying (single) and Women Doubles' Chen Ying & Sheng Wengqing of China (This is the only correct one).

    So..., are these mistakes or ???


    James Zhen Huang
    Claims:
    1990 - Gold - Thailand Open Mixed Doubles
    Wikipedia: Park Joo-bong & Chung Myung-hee of South Korea.

    Claims:
    1984 - Gold - US Open Men's Singles
    Wikipedia: Xiong Guobao of China

    1984 - Gold - US Open Men's Doubles
    Wikipedia: Pengren (CHN) & Yu (CHN)


    So...., what happen to the claims....????

    Can my friend ask for refunds due to believing his son time and efforts to be trained by these jokers...???
     
  2. krisss

    krisss Regular Member

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    I think that he should be aloud a refund - but I doubt he will get one.

    A coach can't lie about their credentials - and that is terrble.

    The reason I say why I doubt they will give one is because - 2 years of coaching is going to be a lot.
     
  3. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    I am not taking any side, just purely taking my own point of view. Personally, I will separate the training quality away with the coach's own playability.

    1. Coach's record does not line up with Wiki. I do not know much about these, and I can't say whether ABC or Wiki's record is more reliable or the other way.

    2. Here's the main point of the issue, whether your coach's own playability is as good as a champion or, not as good (but still legit elite) level, it does not matter to 99.99% of us. LD might not be a great coach when he retire, less successful players such as CY, XXZ, BCL might be a much coach candidate later on. Being a good student in 1 day, does not gurantee being a great teacher later. Put his way, as a player, Magic Johnson is a legend. Players like Avery Johnson may only rank 1,000 on the "ever played" PG list. However, as a coach, AJ's record is far more superior than Magic.

    Picking a teacher should based on whether the teaching style is suitable, but not based on some individual records which was 20 yrs ago. To me, if an ex-international player willing to teach me, I will gladly accept it. However, if "only" a player who's "only" 20 times better than me (but never even get to national team) will to teach me, and I found it's useful, I will more than happy to accept it, too.

    3. Teaching and learnin are like clapping hands. You need 2 to make a good result, but not just 1 sided. No offense against your friend's kid, but does s/he train as hard as others, does s/he train effectively as others, besides taking a few hours training, does s/he do other condition training, and analysis his/her game, and try to adopt all the material into games? All such and such need to be counted, when you evaluate the result. In any class, there are students grad with A, and some with F, and they have the same teacher...


    Overall, I can not rush for a judgement, simply based on the different information from 2 websites. However, I really do not think the kid and/or parent can get the refund. If s/he does not like the lesson, why it takes 2 years to find out? Aren't the player and parent should carefully evaluate the process, and identify any problem at an earlier stage? :rolleyes:

    Serious, as us joe club players, is that make a big difference, whether our coach is LD or XXZ or some relatively no name international level players???
     
    #3 LazyBuddy, Apr 1, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2009
  4. pramana

    pramana Regular Member

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    Well, actually I caught this issue early and mentioned to ABC management. Unfortunately, it did not get further action to clear the difference claims from reputable sites such as Wikipedia and Abadminton sites.

    These are my comments:

    Basically, a coach SHOULD NOT list something as his or her accomplishments when public websites such as Wikipedia lists the results differently. They had to clear the issues, before claiming certain tournaments as their accomplishments. It creates doubtful and concerns, especially to such reputable site as wikipedia.com.

    Second, besides of those generous accomplishments, a good coach SHOULD acknowledge early when her or his students were not able to achieve desire levels of performance, not to wait someone to mention it. The coach should discuss the progress to the parents and review the students performance month after month.

    Third, this issue may stain ABC reputations, if wikipedia is correct.

    So, if you ask me how to solve this issue?
    I will ask these coaches to provide their medals, trophies and photos when they stood on the podium receiving their medals to be displayed in the gym. Bottom line, no proof, no list of accomplishment will be listed on the abadminton.com

    In regards to refund, I think it is a long shot.:cool:
     
  5. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    user "endut" is a duplicate registration and has been banned.

    the issue he raised, however, seems genuine so the thread will remain. if endut wants to continue discussion, he can use his other account.
     
  6. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    From the list...

    ..i can say, the only valid proofs go to Chen Ying. Although, only a partial of those valid titles are recorded in Wikipedia. Also, some of the years, printed, are wrongly inputted/typo.

    So, here is what i found, based on the wikipedia link above. She did win these titles, but most of them in WD:
    1990 WS & WD-Polish open
    1995 WD-Russian open
    1993 WD-China open
    1993 WD-HK Open

    As for the reason(s) why the kid didn't impress the original poster, hence this query, that i don't know exactly. But i can somewhat concur with LazyBuddy's POV #3.
     
    #6 ctjcad, Apr 2, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2009
  7. cappy75

    cappy75 Regular Member

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    Wikipedia can be an unreliable source of information but it is scrutinized by the wider public and subject to corrections from almost anybody so it is somewhat reliable depending on whether others would take it upon themselves to correct the 'mistakes'. Other more legitimate sources could come from BWF and public media.

    Perhaps Endut's other alias is better known to his peers and wanted to avoid trouble, but s/he should seriously consider own approach to publicize this. If you want to reveal the truth, rather than hiding behind numerous alias, you better be willing to put your own credibility on the line. You shouldn't be afraid to speak out on your own name when you find something wrong. If you're so afraid of the repercussions, then maybe you should have just remained silent. In this case, you do have a legitimate grounds for complaint so nobody should have any issue with you.

    Lazybuddy is right on the ball as usual... there's always two participants in a learning process. The coach can be a genius but it's just a waste of time if the student does not have the drive or capability in the first place.

    Refunds? It's not going to happen without some legal efforts put into it. Thing is... is it worthwhile?
     
    #7 cappy75, Apr 2, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2009
  8. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    So, the father witness the trainig progress for 2 years... So, if he believes the trainer did not do his/her job, why he did not voice his concern or change a coach way earlier? :rolleyes:

    Like my previous post, I really wonder is that a big difference if the club coach is LD, or only joe doe internation player, who barely ranks 30-50, or even just our local regional finalist? To me, they are all way beyond my level, and should all have solid fundamentals. Whether he ever ranked world #1, or world #31, or even just my city #1, is only a matter of he is 5,000 times better than me, or 1,000 times better than me. :p
     
  9. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    After I read again with the "refund" issue, I can not stop laughing, and maybe I can do the following:

    Let's say I can go to any 5-star hotel, stay for 1 month, and complain that even though it's a nice place, but somehow the room arrangment / bed setup made me sleepless. So, I can ask for refund...

    Or, say I hire a 5-star chef, let him work for me for 3 months. At the end, I fire him, and force him to pay back all the $$$. Reason? Even though I ate for 3 months already, I complain that not even 1 meal fit for my taste (even though I still ate, and so as my family, and no one ever voiced any concerns)...

    Great world... everything can be free, as long as you file a complain say 10 yrs later... :p
     
  10. pramana

    pramana Regular Member

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    Refund will happen if one party admitted of wrong doing and agreed to replace the damages or disappointment of service.

    In this case, I do not think the trainer would admit the issue on her or his side. I may assume you already approached them of your expectation along with the parents of the child.

    If you are not happy, you may go a step further with civil lawsuit. The ground of this approach is based on misrepresentation.

    I do not really support this approach, because it may relate to ABC, which may not have any direct relation to your disappointment. However, ABC is the one who provides the information of the trainers, which means ABC may be guilty by association.

    If I may say, just take this case as grain in the salt. Just move on and advice the parents of the child to be more resourceful and careful on trusting someone. Do not just read the label on the product. Ask for references and do some diligent research before committed.

    If you like to meet me, just fine the one with bright yellow and blue shoes.;)
     
  11. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Ok, I got the point.

    However, as in my first post, I already stated the 2 things should be treated separatly. Coach's own career achivement as a player, and his/her reputation as a successful coach / trainer.

    Tell me any single ad. in this world does NOT tend to mis-lead customer in a way or not. Everyone is playing on the gray area. If you want to trust every single word in the newspaper, commercial, etc. Good luck... It's down to the customer's own deicision about what to take and what to select.

    Again, if the kid and/or parent have any doubts (again, toward the training quality rather than coach's own record 20-30 yrs ago), why they need 2 years and through other ppl's mouth to even mention it???:rolleyes:

    Ok, you can make a case that such and such might be mis-leading. However, I would rather want to consider such claim as "finger pointing", as the kids do not progress as others.

    If you eat some nasty food in a cafe, spit it out, and complain right there. Not like after you eating there for 2 years, ordered the same thing, and suddenly say, "I actually do not like it, where's the refund for 2 yrs..." :mad:
     
  12. ABCmanagement

    ABCmanagement Regular Member

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    Hi All

    We got the resume from Ingrid Chen and James Huang quite a while ago. They both are our freelance coaches who also go to other clubs and city recreation (Walnut Teen Center, etc.) to teach too. The student deal direct with relative coaches and pay them directly.

    If you believe the past records are false nor any wrong doing from these coaches, please file an official report to ABC and we shall forward to the coaches about these claims. After receiving these claims, ABC Management will do the following:
    a. check with WBF about these matter. And Since this is purely an advertising favor for these coaches, and because they are not hired by ABC, ABC posted their resumes on our website without any reason to believe they were false; therefore, their past performances were neither verified, nor were the coaches ever under ABC's payroll.
     
  13. ABCmanagement

    ABCmanagement Regular Member

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    Hi All

    This is a continuous reply from my previous message. ABC will do the following:

    1. Check with WBF about these Players/Coaches on their past performances.
    2. Let the Coaches know the variances of their past performances.
    3. We'll have more alert on this issue in the future and verify 3rd party declaration before posting on our website.

    Thanks for such a precious lesson. We still welcome all kind of Coaches to teach at our club cos' this will help developing Badminton. Not just limited to certain so-called high level players/coaches. As u may noticed in ABC, some young kids also coaching for their friends or father coaching their kids and we won't enforce them to get a Coach Certificate like some countries. Most of the students here brought to ABC by their coaches. ABC not only need good players, we need more players with passion. The most satisaction for me is seeing players leaving our club with a smile.

    If any errors found from BWF next week, we shall delete/edit their resumes. Right now we just add one sentence on the Coach page stating that "The Resume was provided by the above coach".

    Friend of Endut should talk to the relevant coach seriously. And besides, thanks for playing here for 15 months since we opened in December 2007.

    I really appreciate your comments and concerns to ABC. The improvement and future of Badminton all relied on your care to our Badminton Community.

    William Chan
    ABC
     
  14. SuperBird

    SuperBird Regular Member

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    There are many coaches at ABC: If you're planning to have training for your kids in long term, I would recommend rotate the coaches for every month. Then ask your child/adult what coach suit them the most and take more lessons from that one. ABC coaches can do so much in training the kids but this is Sport intelligent-->some kids take longer time to improve. Education is the same way too, If your teacher is graduated from Harvard University--doesn't mean he going to make your kid a Genius, if he just a slow learner.

    Here a few tips to improve your badminton on your own:

    1) Lose some Weight!!!
    2) Running and jogging---> 1 mile to 5 mile per week to built stamina
    (so you are able to play 3 games non-stop))): AND STILL HAVE A Smile on your FACE!!
    3) Do push up: waking up, before sleeping, before shower, everytime you watch TV-comercial hrs: do some push UP for your punishment--FOR WATCHING TV
    4)Do jump rope
    5)Watch LIN DAN / Taufik / LEE CHONG /...the best player
    ((Personally----> These are my Virtual coaches: use YOUR DVD--slow play--->Watch and put yourself in their shoe..........))))-
    6)Finally words: PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.....THINK POSITIVE...THINK POSITIVE...PRACTICE....PRACTICE & PRACTICE........BUT MAKE SURE YOU ARE PRACTICING IN GOOD FORMS OR ELSE BAD HABITS ARE HARD TO BREAK!!!!!!!!

    GOOD LUCK...!!!!! LET'S THE GAME BEGIN.......................I LUV BADMINTON:

    COACHING IS ONLY A GUIDE IN BADMINTON: EVERYONE HAS THEIR OWN UNIQUE WAYS OR COMFORT IN HITTING THE BIRDY---FINE TUNE THE WAYS YOU HIT THE SHUTTLE AND YOU ARE ON YOUR WAYS TO BETTER BADMINTON PLAYER.
     
  15. ABCmanagement

    ABCmanagement Regular Member

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    await reply from BWF

    Just want to keep U guys informed we are still awaiting replies from BWF. I think it takes sometime to check. May I propose to BWF to work on a database so players all have the following information for any interested parties to check in the future:
    1. Name - First, Last
    2. Country (Countries) representing
    3. Ranking - Highest
    4. Event played - Singles, Doubles, Mixed
    5. Partners (Doubles and Mixed)
    6. Venue of Event played (such as US Open 2008 at OCBC)
    7. Picture of the Player

    Above is also a recognition to the players of their efforts - training; tournaments played; time travelled etc.

    Below is the reply from Mr. Stuart Borrie of BWF which is self-explantory. I appreciated much for his help. My mission to start this ABC is to let more people (in all ages) to get healthier by playing Badminton.

    Quoted"Dear William

    This time I have cc in our Events Manager - and I will discuss with Venu
    tomorrow about verifying the results of these players.

    Regards

    Stuart Borrie
    Secretary General
    Badminton World Federation
    www.internationalbadminton.org
    P +60 3 9283 7155 / 6155
    F +60 3 9284 7155

    -----Original Message-----
    From: info@abadminton.com [mailto:info@abadminton.com]
    Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2009 6:11 AM
    To: bwf@internationalbadminton.org
    Cc: stuart.borrie@internationalbadminton.org
    Subject: How to check the Resume of our Coaches

    Dear Mr. Borrie

    2 of our Coaches submitted the following Resumes to us. Is there any
    way to verify?

    1. CHEN Ying (Female)
    Arcadia Badminton Club - Guest Coach
    Ingrid Ying Chen (Former Chinese National Player)

    2003 to Present - Coach in Walnut Teen Center, Irvine Chinese School
    1997 - 2003 - Coach of Shanghai Badminton Team
    1997 - Bronze - Chinese National Game Team (representing Shanghai)
    1997 - Silver - Chinese National Game
    1996 - 1/4 Final - Olympic Games Atlanta 1996
    1996 - Silver - Uber Cup
    1996 - Gold - Russian Open
    1996 - Gold - German Open
    1996 - Bronze - Hong Kong Open
    1996 - Bronze - China Open
    1995 - Bronze - Thailand Open
    1995 - Bronze - China Open
    1995 - Bronze - Hong Kong Open
    1995 - Gold - Polish Open
    1995 - Gold - Russian Open
    1994 - Silver - Uber Cup
    1994 - Gold - China Open
    1994 - Gold - Hong Kong Open
    1994 - Bronze - Singapore Open
    1994 - Bronze - Malaysian Open
    1994 - Bronze - Indonesian Open
    1994 - Bronze - Asia Sports Game Team
    1994 - Bronze - Asia Sports Game
    1993 - Gold - Asia Cup
    1993 - Gold - Thailand Open
    1993 - Gold - German Open
    1993 - Gold - French Open
    1993 - Gold - Danish Open
    1993 - Bronze - Holland Open
    1993 - Bronze - China Open
    1993 - Bronze - Hong Kong Open
    1992 - Bronze - World Cup
    1992 - Gold - China Open
    1992 - Gold - Hong Kong Open
    1992 - Silver - Danish Open
    1992 - Silver - German Open
    1991 - Silver - Malaysia Open
    1991 - Silver - Asia Cup
    1991 - Silver - Singapore Open
    1991 - Bronze - China Open
    1991 - Bronze - Hong Kong Open
    1990 - Gold - Chinese National Game Team (representing Shanghai)
    1990 - Gold - National Game
    1990 - Gold - Polish Open
    1990 - Gold - *Polish Open Ladies Single
    1989 - Gold - Chinese National Game
    1989 - Silver - Chinese National Game Ladies Single

    * Ladies Single. All the rest are Ladies Doubles.

    2. HUANG Zhen (Guest Coach)

    Men's Doubles:
    1993 Hong Kong Open
    1993 China Open
    1992 Thailand Open
    1992 China Open
    1992 Singapore Open
    1991 Singapore Open
    1990 Thailand Open
    1989 China Open
    1989 Thailand Open
    1989 Malaysian Open
    1989 All Engliand
    1989 Swedish Open
    1989 Japan Open

    Mixed Doubles:
    1993 Hong Kong Open
    1992 China Open
    1992 Singapore Open
    1991 Singapore Open
    1989 China Open

    Please advise?

    Thank You
    William Chan
    Owner
    ARCADIA BADMINTON CLUB
    Arcadia, CA 91006
    USA
    Tel: 626-401-0088
    www.abadminton.com
    "unquoted
     
  16. SuperBird

    SuperBird Regular Member

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    UPON CHECKING THE internet at 8:30 am on Friday, December 14, we were startled to learn that "George O'Leary has resigned his job at Notre Dame after admitting that he had lied (on his resume) about playing football at the U. of New Hampshire and earning a master's degree at a non-existent university (NYU - Stony Brook)."
    We understood why this was so embarrassing to Notre Dame and its brand new coach, but why was everyone making a federal case out of a couple of little white lies?
    Was George O'Leary the first football coach in America to distort or lie about something in his resume? Who was kidding whom? Nearly every coaching resume contains some mild distortion.
    What exacerbates the problem is that the public and our saintly reporters don't have a clue about what is happening. They don't know how tough it is for a beginner to find a job on the college level. Dozens of bright people come out of college with no particular accomplishments or a contact who can put in a good word for them with a college coach.
    Just how are such job hunters going to sell themselves to people who don't know them or have any idea of their love for the game, burning desire to coach it, and actual knowledge of the game and willingness to work at it?
    So forgive us for not dropping dead whenever we hear about those little white lies in high-class resumes. How can we be so forgiving about such "sins?" Because they have been part of the game forever and because we know a secret about resumes. They may get you a job, but they cannot keep it for you.
    If you can't cut it, you are gone. If you have anything on the ball, the coach will be happy to give you a shot -- and forget everything that appeared on the resume.
    All we know about George O'Leary is that his resume may have given him a shot, but once he had the ball in his hand he ran with it all the way to the top of his profession. That, friends, takes enormous talent, personality, and a terrific work ethic -- things that cannot be wiped out by the disclosure of a few youthful missteps.
    Practically every public entertainer and politician will have two or twelve such glitches in their resumes. Typical: "John Wayne was an All-American tackle at USC who earned his degree in physical education." The truth: John Wayne was a third-string lineman, who never lettered, never graduated, and whose real name wasn't even John Wayne.
    Everyone grins about such things because they know that people outgrow such harmless exaggerations.
    Why is a football coach denied such tolerance? We can understand how Notre Dame was snowballed into firing its coach. We only wish it had followed its first instinct -- one of forgiveness.
    What is so scary about such incidents is how a basically harmless little lie can seek a person out and tarnish an honorable and well-deserved reputation.
    COPYRIGHT 2002 Scholastic, Inc.
    COPYRIGHT 2007 Gale Group
     
  17. SuperBird

    SuperBird Regular Member

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    Live To Forgive
    Forgive To Live................................>>>happy Badminton.....let's Play

    May God Bless Us All..........the King Has Spoken "can We All Get Along!!!"
     
  18. illusionistpro

    illusionistpro Regular Member

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    Ethics! Its all about ethics! Sure he has great talent, but so did Bernie Madoff before he started running his ponzi scheme.

    In this day in age with so many people being scammed including any one in involved in the Bernie Madoff scandal, and also the Enron scandal, it's important these days to have moral ethics. If you keep a coach on board that lied to get there, its saying its ok to lie. Naturally he had to resign when the school found out, because 1) they wouldve fired him anyways and 2) he knew it was wrong! I argue its not harmless because it sets a standard of practices that everyone else will follow. It sets a precedence for how to act in the 'field' and although it may begin as something small as moving a few dollars from one account to another, or 'fluffing' up a resume but that is only the beginning of what it can easily turn into when a few dollars become a few million and 'fluffing' becomes straight up lies.

    If we all practice good ethics then we could all work hard together rather than cheating one another and taking short cuts. If this coach's talent was so great he couldve done something great at a lower highschool or semi professional level and moved into the spotlight after he proved he belonged. Clearly he didnt belong and he got what he deserved.

    Bringing this back to badminton, imagine if you had a line judge that was crooked. They could call your shots out, or fault you on your serve and that can easily cost you the match. It may start out with a few bad line calls, but turns into costing you the match.

    And if that isnt bringing it home, imagine you are competing against some one for a position/job/badminton match, anything really and you lose to them. You may or may not be dissapointed, you may be satisfied with your performance by giving it your all, but when you find out you were cheated and you actually deserved the spot, but may now never get it, although you were runner up, that would frustrate you knowing you were that close, but cheated out of what you actually deserved.
     
  19. SuperBird

    SuperBird Regular Member

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    Yes, "Ethics! Its all about ethics!"---> I totally agree with this statement. This is a very complex topic for discussion if you taking outside the CONTEXT OF ABC situation. But, if you contain within the situation and look at the BIG picture---WE are making a big deal out of something that is so belittle in argument. All the coaches at ABC in my humble opinion have the ability to coach badminton from beginners to advance player. But, if you expect a coach to Make you the next LIN DAN---Then i totally strongly feel you need to REVIEW the coach's experience , and asked his champion creation and be prepare to HAVE big POCKET TO pay for IT $$$$$$$$$$.
     
  20. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    The ability to be a great player and the ability to be a great coach are totally different issues.

    For example, Li Mao as a player, is never at LCW's or even LHI's level. However, he made both players shine at the time he was the coach. So, he has "something" to make his students to jump to the next level.

    LD, as another case, unless he can change his temper a bit, I seriously doubt he can be an effective coach, as many might think he's over pushing.

    Seriously, for 99.9% of us, does it really matter if our coach is LD, or someone "only as good as" joe doe ex-international player, or "even just" as local regional elite players? :rolleyes:
     

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