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Adding one extra cross string

Discussion in 'Badminton Stringing Techniques & Tools' started by Blitzzards, Feb 10, 2010.

  1. kklam

    kklam Regular Member

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    I concur with what Cooler said.
     
  2. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    First, let me clear this issue on whether stringing the crosses from the top down or from the bottome up gives a tighter upper string bed.
    I am sure everyone can find this out by simply moving the first 11 top cross strings with a finger. Stringing the crosses from the bottom up will have very loose cross strings at the top, even if the last cross string at the top has an added 10% higher tension than the tension used on the other crosses.
    Second, let us hear from stringers who string the crosses from bottom up at say 32lbs with the last cross at the top at 35lbs, using an awl for that last "stop"before the knot tie-off. Of course there is a lot of heat as the tensioned 35lbs of the last string is being released by the tensioner bites into the grommet hole with the string/awl taking such a high load.
    I may even suggest you test this "awl silliness" at high tension with all your stringing jobs and just find out its high cost in broken strings.
     
  3. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Look, a strung badminton racquet will always have one half of the stringbed tighter than the other half. This is due to one half using a real or pseudo starting knot to start off the cross stringing and the other half using a tie-off to finish its last cross string. One side is being pulled (always tighter), the other side being tied off (loses tension).
    It is better to have the top half of the stringbed tighter for improved playability. The bottom half of the stringbed has less power.
     
  4. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    1) No one is advocate 30+ for every one except you.
    2) Stop using extreme example for your excuse. I would like to ask you, after you tie the "Proper" starting knot, when you pull the very top string, don't you produce compression on the string and produce same level of heat? So your argument makes absolute no sense.
    3) Guess what, metal is a better heat conductor than air or polymers. So any heat produced by awl insertion, will dissipate much faster than the heat dissipate in the air or by the string. So your argument holds no water.
    4) I can tell you this. No matter how you sting it, top down or throat up, given the same tension, it will be harder to move top few string than lower few strings. Why? because the top few crosses are shorter then the lower crosses. By physic, it takes more force to displace the same distance. I will not go into detail because it is just high school physics. Please refer to your text book if you ever took physics.
    5) So what happen if you string cross center out just like the main? Should the top feel the same as lower string bed?
    6) Please start a new thread on this subject if you wish. We tried to answer the question on the first post. Your posts is no help what so ever... I know you like to listen to yourself talk. I am not going to stop you.
     
  5. Blitzzards

    Blitzzards Regular Member

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    I would actually like to edit the title of the thread to "cross stringing variations" rather than have the discussion moved to another thread. So if a mod can please help me do that....

    All these discussion facts are very interesting to read. Thanks a lot guys :D
     
  6. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Just as a note, and keeping in mind that I've only strung about 50 rackets, I do a 2 piece stringing method and always increase the tension by 2-3 lbs on the last couple of strings to help with the issue of loss of tension due to the knot. I also use an awl to help hold tension as I pull on the string before knotting again to help reduce loss in tension but do not release the clamp on the last string until I've tied the knot and removed the awl.

    Not sure if what I'm doing is the best way or not but I get good results which I, and those I string for, are happy with.

    In the end, while these discussions are great from an academic point of view, as long as you're happy with the stringing method that you, or your stringer, uses then "to each their own".
     
  7. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    2nd point.
    if the racket is spec'ed to be strung at 32 lbs, on every pull, the string slide and compress onto the grommet. So, on every tensioning, u r generating heat on the string-grommet contact. It is no more worst or better than the situation on the last cross when an awl is used for the compression. Ok, u add 3 more lbs to the 32 lbs on last cross, i say the extra heat from 35 lbs tensioning is too small even on imagination level. With heat loss to the awl itself, I say the heat endured by the last string-grommet contact at 35lbs is less than heat absorbed by the strings and grommet on all other 32 lbs pull. Therefore, your make belief that the last cross generating damaging heat to the string is wrong and unsubstantiated. As i had said before, heat generated from string runnng through each grommet is far far far >>>> than the heat suffered by the string-grommet compression and movement on the last cross.

    u say it is playing with fire(high cost of broken strings) when using awl to assist tie-off but we have testimonies showing nothing like that happened.

    on both points above, the only heat i feel is the hot air u r blowing.

    on your 1st point, i have a theory to explain all that, but not ready to disclose it yet. The theory, is supported by science principles. In the meantime, to all stringers, keep doing what ur doing. For taneepak, he'll do what he believe in, i rather not waste my energy changing his tradition
     
    #27 cooler, Feb 11, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2010
  8. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    1. I use 32 to 35lbs on my first cross string at the top very frequently for my more advanced customers, so it is not unsual for me. I am citing this tension range as typical of very high tension stringing. However, my earlier warning about the silliness of using an awl to poke into a grommet hole on the last cross string to facilitate the knot tie-off holds true for lower mid-range tensions too.
    Whilst the use of the awl in tennis stringing with its very thick strings and huge grommet holes may be acceptable, in badminton racquets it is just poor stringmanship.
    Remember, the awl was introduced for manual stringing by hand where after every pull of each string you would stick the awl into the grommet hole to stop the tensioned string from moving. Hand stringing, typically in the low 15lbs, is a far cry from today's tensions used in badminton racquets.
    2. No, when I tensioned the first cross string at the top at say 33lbs all I see is an extreme tightening of the 5-loop starting knot. Heat, what heat? In the grommet with the starting knot there is only the string taking up the tunnel space-no metallic awl or other objects to take up more room and create unnecessary heat from a "blocked" or over-crowded hole.
    Now, do you see where and why there is unnecessary heat being generated.
    3. With a metal awl that is heated it will of course do an unfriendly act on the string. There is not enough empty space in that damn hole for any air to cool the heat and there are no mechanical heat sinks to divert the heat.
    4. No, this is not completely true. Let us stick to the point here, and that is a top down cross stringing will result in a stiffer upper stringbed than stringing the crosses from the bottom up. You have earlier claimed the very opposite to be the case. I am saying you are wrong.
    5. Stringing the crosses from the middle is as bad as stringing the crosses from the bottom up insofar as playability is concerned. The former uses no starting or pseudo starting knot and would lose even more tension.
    6. I have in my first post in this thread addressed the question raised in this thread. Using an extra cross is counter-productive. Instead, I advocate using one less cross string, missing out the second last cross at the bottom, for the greastes and most optimal playability.

    In summary, after all what is said and rebutted, I wish to put on record my stand on this:
    1. Using one less cross string, specifically omitting the second last cross at the bottom, improves playability and power.
    2. Using an awl for that last finishing cross on badminton racquets is not recommended. It is suicidal at high tensions. It shortens the life of the string.
     
  9. kklam

    kklam Regular Member

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    Hey Master Taneepak. You've mentioned heat will produce when using an awl and increase of air friction when adding one more cross. What is the magnitude of heat and friction we are talking about? Can you back them up with some calculations? I've strung over 1000 racquets at mid range tensions as what you defined and using an awl for knotting, nothing happened so far. I'm an engineer and I would like to see something substantial to prove your theory.
     
  10. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    the metal awl is the mechancial heat sink, an excellent one too.
    air is poor in conducting of heat.
     
  11. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    There are threads and posts on this column "Stringing Techniques & Tools" containing sorry tales about the use of the awl.
    Cooler, since you are good with retrieving old records you can do a search. There are enough familiar names who have broken strings from using the awl.
     
  12. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    Yeah, and you are the one claiming waxed dental floss will cause friction and generate heat to damage the string.
     
  13. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    Errr, let me repost what i've said in post #19.


    there are also people broken rackets while playing badminton, should they stop playing badminton?

    there are stringers who have broken rackets while stringing, should they abandon their stringing endeavor?

    Do u want to hear from all stringers of their every successful usage of awl stories here??
     
    #33 cooler, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  14. kklam

    kklam Regular Member

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    Master Taneepak, be specific and tell us what the magnitude of heat induced to the string when the awl is used.
     
  15. singnflip4life

    singnflip4life Regular Member

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    Uhm, to interject onto the original topic, I restrung my Zelm PP10K today with Gosen Bio Roots Aermet (love this wonky string btw) at 23 pounds with the extra cross. It's previous stringing was the same string/tension with same amt of crosses. Here's what I found.

    Power generation was identical. Same power required to send the birdie just as far on clears and smashes.

    Finesse shots were quite a different story. It was some of the best feel i've had in a while, and that increased feel really let me direct lifts, drops, and net tumbles exactly where I wanted and how I wanted.

    So right now, I'd so do it all the time. But I'm gonna keep testing with a few other
    racquets before I make any conclusive decisions. Also, this +1 extra cross deal seems like it would work out best with 1 piece bottom up. I also don't know what the long terms ramifications of an extra cross, but I can certainly see it eating my racket grommet more than the rest. God help my PP10K. Would definitely not recommend for fragile rackets.
     
  16. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I would advise that you avoid stores that use the awl for stringing. Awls have been the main culprit for damaged or torn grommets and they have also been responsible for micro cracks on the frame.
    Generally, grommets should last almost indefinitely. So if you find your grommets are being damaged the reason is almost due to the use of the awl.
     
  17. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    *awl is just a tool, how it is applied and by whom determine result quality.

    ** i don't buy that at all unless your past stringing jobs are all ultra low tension

    *** a poor stringer can still damage grommets without using any awl.

    we are all still waiting for your example or proof relating to kklam's question.
     
    #37 cooler, Feb 12, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  18. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The awl used to be a stringing tool for badminton. But the days of this ancient and redundant tool should have been consigned to history. Today, the presence and the use of an awl in a badminton stringing machine set-up is a tell-tale sign of lack of professionalism and irresponsibility.
    kklam's question is childish, frivolous, and irrelevant and answering it would place me in the same shade/colour. Look, at high tensions the use of the awl to poke into a grommet to hold that highly tensioned string is suicidal. In fact there is a better and safer way to achieve the same thing which does not use the awl. If you want to know pls pm me.
    The very highly tensioned string with the awl jamming into a hole-the tighter the jamming the less tension lost, hence a lose-lose situation-will creat heat and will damage the grommet and stress the frame athe the grommet site.
    What a silly question asking me about the degrees of heat, etc. It is like seeing the forest for the trees.
     
  19. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    FYI, many years ago I used to insert the awl on the last tensioned cross string, albeit at much low tension. I then replaced it with another method that essentially did the same thing without using the awl. Now, I don't even use this method at all, as I find that stringing the crosses from top down does not require a really taut last cross string at the bottom. However, stringing the crosses bottom up, it is still necessary to ensure a taut last cross string at the top.
     
  20. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    let me remind u that it was you who claimed that inserting awl into a grommet to hold a tensioned string create frictional heat damage to the string. It was me telling u stop bumping into the trees.
     

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