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Alternative to Lee Jae Bok's approach to smashing.

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by BernieR, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. BernieR

    BernieR Regular Member

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    I see comments that LJB's approach to smashing is out of line with the latest ideas. Where can I find a clear instructional video that explains the latest ideas and/or points out differences with LJB's teaching?
     
  2. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    here..

    [video=youtube;HNVC5PVJyPQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNVC5PVJyPQ[/video]
     
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  3. BernieR

    BernieR Regular Member

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    Thanks pc. I had already discovered that video, I would like to try to pin down the differences between his approach and LJB's.

    First the grip: am I right in thinking that his grip is different to LJB's suggestion, in that he doesn't open the racket face by 10 degrees? So with Jimmy Lin's grip, the thumb is on the wide facet of the handle, but with LJB's it is more towards the bevel?

    Second, the left hand at the start of the stroke: JL's left hand is in front of his face, LJB wants us to move the left hand to the left, away from the face, so that we are facing the opponent's court more. I must say I feel more balanced with LJB's approach here.
     
  4. Redjack

    Redjack Regular Member

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    Lee Jae Bok uses his wrist and less pronation in a smash where the normal power in a smash comes for pronation, most of LJB's power comes from wrist, he also stands more square on with a more panhandle grip and hits the shuttle with the racket face flatter

    This video of his has some good tips for someone who uses the pronation method for overheads

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIug4gRpDvg
     
  5. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    watch this..

    [video=youtube;pxXw3Zsro1Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxXw3Zsro1Q[/video]
     
  6. BernieR

    BernieR Regular Member

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    I'm not sure how that answers my questions PC.
     
  7. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Whilst LJB may or may not be an excellent coach, and what he teaches may or may not be correct, it is very very important to realise that the videos he posts are not going to be the same as what he teaches in person. By this, I mean that his videos should not be taken as gospel (as the only way to do it), but instead should be viewed with the intention of seeing if any of his ideas may help you with your game. In reality, he may teach something different in person, because he has more time to develop and explain his ideas.

    Thus, whilst I do not like the content of some of his videos, I cannot say that he would not be able to explain it better in person. His videos are what they are: 4 minute videos designed to impart a little bit of advice. Imagine the difference if you actually had lessons over the course of years - there will be much more detail that cannot be captured in a 4 minute video!

    Now then, on to your question:
    What is the difference in his VIDEO teaching compared to other videos? (assume right handed)
    1. Grip: he teaches a grip that is more towards a panhandle grip for overhead shots.

    This is probably where he differs to most other videos. Whilst the grip he suggests may or may not work for you, the reasoning behind choosing his grip (i.e. it is necessary to have this grip in order to take the shuttle in front of your body) is not true. Thus - consider whether the grip will work for you, and choose as appropriate.

    However, as with all coaches, his explanation as to why you should try something is often biased to favour what he is teaching (all coaches do it, but some are more biased than others).

    2. Focus on left arm position: Lee makes it seem as though the positioning of the arm is critical for view and power.

    Bear in mind: many top professionals have a completely different arm positioning, and they do not struggle for power or precision. Thus, take it as a suggestion that may help, rather than necessary.

    3. Cocking the wrist back before a smash: Lee states you can cock your wrist in one way or another before you play your smash. Realistically, it is not the limited.

    Bear in mind: most professionals start with a neutral wrist, and then cock their wrist and uncock it again as part of their stroke. This is an option that Lee never considers - once again, take it as a suggestion that may work, not a necessity.

    4. Positioning of right elbow: Lee is very strict about where to have your elbow positioned. However, as with other videos, his explanation is biased to encourage his technique - his explanation of course, fails to address the fact that most professionals do things completely differently, and are all fine. If you do not know what to do, then you could consider following Lee coaching. However, it may similarly not work for you.

    These are the main differences between LJBs teaching and other coaches as far as I am aware.

    Most technique videos have clear demonstrations on how to do it "properly" e.g. JLs videos, the Chen Weihua videos, the Zhao Jianhua videos, the peter rasmussen videos etc are all clear and concise.

    Good luck

    and let me know if there are any other LJB videos you have questions about. I may not have seen them all.
     
  8. BernieR

    BernieR Regular Member

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    I've seen hours of LJB's videos MSeeley, some of them are a lot longer than 4 minutes, and he is very consistent in what he says, I find it hard to believe he would say anything very different face to face.

    I've already figured out that you need to think about what other coaches say and about what works for you: that's why I was asking for details about where LJB differs from what is taught elsewhere, which you answered for me, so thanks for that.
     
  9. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I was lol at the title of your thread, because LJB is the one who's the alternative to everyone else's approach to smashing. :p
     
  10. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Whilst I am glad to hear that you understand not to simply take his videos as "the truth" I know many players who do not have this opinion. Hence my warning. Bear in mind that, with regard to smash, he teaches something very different (in terms of smashing action) in his "play to win" video than in his later videos.

    I am in a similar position to you with regard to his videos. I purchased DVDs many years ago of all of his videos, many of which are now free (which is annoying - I had to pay for them). However, back 7/8 years ago, he did not express such strong views about right elbow positioning or wrist cocking (check out his 26 minute "power smash" video). So I am not sure that I agree that his coaching is always consistent - I believe it has changed over the years. Things that were not important before have, all of a sudden, become critical.

    However, I do agree, SOME aspects of his coaching have always been consistent (such as the importance of contact point).

    Good luck to you and to everyone else.
     
  11. charliebadders

    charliebadders Regular Member

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    Living close to where lee jae bok used to coach i know quite a few players that used train in his sessions. It is very clear in the differences between a Korean style like lee jae bok's and a Danish style. The Korean style does not change grip much for different overhead shots, similar grip in the around the head to the straight smash. Comparing to the Danish style I find finer, using more of the fingers to adjust their grip during a motion, this gives greater emphasis to deception. Compared to the Korean style which is more focused on power. My advice would be to get coaching from more than one coach and find a style that suits you better or use a mixture of 2 styles.
     
  12. ericben

    ericben Regular Member

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    There are many styles of hitting. LJB's style is simple and straightforward for coaching purposes. It is good to have an effective dominant style of hitting that you are comfortable with and the occasional deceptive style to surprise your opponent.

    As long as you can hit consistently and produce quality shots without injuring yourself in the long run, it is a good style!
     
  13. ^Tayo^

    ^Tayo^ Regular Member

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    As in any craftmanshift, everybody knows the basic technique to achieve expected outcome, then you develop your own style. Your body composition plays a big role I find... for example, heavy 200lbs players with bigger bones can generate more power in their strokes.. me weighing 50lbs less and scrawny would never able to achieve their power, i have to modifiy my swing speed , grip, etc.. to get closer to that power.
     
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  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Definitely Lee Jae Bok teaches an alternative technique - whether that can be extrapolated to "Korean"style in general is a bit much. One person's teaching technique is not necessarily representative.
     
  15. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Firstly, even if LJB could represent Korean style at one time, Korean style itself could change/evolve over time, couldn't it? And Lee's style could also evolve.

    Secondly, you'd be surprised how often LJB changes his grip. He's one who believes one should use different grips at different position to play different shots. I know, as I met him last summer when my kid took a few lessons from him in Toronto.
     
  16. captaincook

    captaincook Regular Member

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    Like learning any other skills (guitar, calculus, cooking), watching video (or youtube) can only get through the basics. To seriously learn a skill, you eventually need live lessons.

    I am with the pronation camp; but I also think the panhandle smashing works well when the shuttle is low and slight in front, and works well when shuttle a slightly "over"-overhead toward backhand side (smashing straight down the line for both examples).
     
  17. J_Noodles

    J_Noodles Regular Member

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  18. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Lee is obviously right that too much arm rotation will ruin your shots. However, not enough arm rotation will also ruin your shots.

    You need to find the right balance. Lee's style of overhead hitting -- which he repeatedly demonstrates in his videos -- is far too much panhandle, with a low contact point. This is similar to a beginner's style of hitting; it's something that coaches consistently try to fix (well, most coaches apart from Lee).

    I think Lee has a good point about "thinking too much" about pronation. If you coach it too actively, then it can become exaggerated. Nowadays I am quite careful about how I introduce arm rotation to players. It's okay to do some dedicated arm rotation practice, as an awareness exercise, but I definitely wouldn't want to be reinforcing it every session.

    I think it's better to spend most of your time on the overall shape of the hitting action -- i.e. the throwing action. If there's not enough arm rotation, then you can carefully introduce it.

    In coaching jargon, this means getting a good balance between shaping and chaining. If you only do shaping, then the player might never "get it". If you do too much chaining, then the player is learning theory and "pieces" but never gets a feel for the whole action; breaking it down too much can interfere with the overall technique.

    Going back to Lee: he often has a good point hidden among over-the-top demos and rhetoric. ;) Unfortunately, most players will not be able to separate the good from the bad.

    Going back to this specific video: I think most club players actually have the opposite problem; they don't have enough arm rotation, because they are panhandling. However, if we consider only those players who have been reading up on technique (like the people reading these forums), then I think Lee is right on the money.
     
    #18 Gollum, Oct 6, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2014
  19. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I also want to say something else about Lee:

    The reason Lee is attracting so much discussion is that he has put lots of good content out there, for free, to help badminton players. He has put a lot of effort into this (trust me, I know how much effort it takes to make coaching videos!).

    Too often the internet is full of people picking other people to bits. While I have different opinions from Lee about some badminton techniques, I don't want to be one of those people.

    So I'd like to thank Lee publicly for his efforts. I am sure he has helped a lot of players all around the world. And (not that my opinion particularly matters), I'd also like to make it clear that I agree with him a lot more than I disagree. Every now and again I take a look at his new videos, because I'm interested in what he has to say.

    In particular, I think he is an inspiring and motivating coach. He is also very positive, supportive, and humble. He certainly inspired me when I was getting started in coaching.
     
    #19 Gollum, Oct 6, 2014
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2014
  20. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    +1

    on the shaping and chaining of the throwing action

    and on the kudos to Lee, although he must be playing the forecourt more since he does panhandle a leeeetle more than normal... either that or he can get away with it with short sharp actions, since he has huge forearm muscles to compensate
     

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