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Badminton: KKK-TBH Swiss Open’s champion!

Discussion in 'German Open / All England / Swiss Open 2007' started by little_bird, Mar 19, 2007.

  1. little_bird

    little_bird Regular Member

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    http://www.skthew.com/2007/03/19/badminton-kkk-tbh-swiss-opens-champion/

    -------------------

    [UPDATED VERSION] Once again, Koo Kien Keat-Tan Boon Heong emerged as the champion in style, beating World number 2 Jens Eriksen-Martin Lundgaard Hansen 17-21, 21-16, 21-12 in Badminton Swiss Open Men Doubles final.
    As of now, they’ve won 3 super series tournaments (Malaysia Open 2007, All-England 2007 and Swiss Open) out of 4 they competed in, proving that the win was not a fluke.
    We Malaysians definitely hope they’ll continue with their winning streak, hence helping lift the long lost country’s image and prestige in the international arena.
    Congratulations guys, stand tall and be humble as usual, there’s still a long way to go.
    Meanwhile, there is some interesting facts quoted from Badminton Central.

    The World No.1 Cai Yun-Fu Haifeng pair became the first pair in the world who has been beaten by KKK-TBH for 3 times. The World No.2 Jens Eriksen-Martin Lundgaard Hansen pair became the second pair in the world who has been beaten by KKK-TBH for 3 times (their first encounter was at Japan Open’06 qf).
     
  2. Han

    Han Regular Member

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    Certainly is great news to all the Malaysian fan and my wish is they win the big ones like Olympic 2008 and upcoming World Championship!
     
  3. little_bird

    little_bird Regular Member

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    That's Malaysians biggest wish for the time being to be able to see a new world champion at home ground.

    As long as they're humble and produce consistent results (unlike Hafiz!), World Championship is within their grasp.

    Meanwhile, there'll be a heroes' welcome planned for All-England Badminton aces Koo Kien Keat-Tan Boon Heong who are scheduled to arrive at KLIA, 11pm today (March 20, Tuesday).
     
  4. yuqiu

    yuqiu Regular Member

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    Yes remember the self-conceited troops are destined to fail. They will not be called great players unless they can win in World Championship and Olympic.
     
  5. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Why always related to the WC and OG? There is no doubt that KKK and TBH are the greatest men's double currently. It has been proved 3 times at MO, AE and SO. Since Tony/Candra never given a chance to play WC and OG, and also limited quotas for each country, WC and OG are much tarnished comparing with any super series.

    On the other hand, even Tony/Candra had won all super series, they would never be the called "great players" according to your definition, only because they are not given a chance at WC/OG.

    So KKK/TBH are great players already, not only great players, but also greatest players. This statement is based on not only their talents, but also their achievements already. WC and OG are just other small scaled tournaments with many restrictions.
     
  6. valen

    valen Regular Member

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  7. Inky2000

    Inky2000 Regular Member

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    Despite of having country quotas, WC & OG titles are still the most difficult titles for individual shuttlers to win simply because their prestige (a significant factor that no one could deny!), and the prestige has resulted in [1] Psychologically speaking, all the top players treat the titles of both events as their ultimate aims while the rest of the events are probably just their stepping stones to achieve those aims as far as they are concerned; [2] ... and therefore, all the top players would try their best to attend the events unless they really couldn't make it (while they might deliberately skip some SS events for strategic or training reasons; Consider Chinese players who repeatedly skip INA Open probably due to security reason... if INA hosts WC or even OG, do you think they would skip both events?); [3] ... and it requires greater mental toughness of the players to triumph as compared to SS events.

    It doesn't matter how many good players are not qualified in both events due to country quotas. What matters most is that the best player win the one and only title in each category. Therefore, as long as those potential champions are qualified, the eventual WC and OG results are still rather convincing as compared to individual SS events.

    I do agree that WC & OG titles may not be a prerequisite for a great player or pair. However, they are the ultimate aims that every player or pair, being great or not, are pursuing.
     
    #7 Inky2000, Mar 19, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2007
  8. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Only the competitors make the competition more difficult not the prestige or other environmental circumstances.

    Your point 1) and 3) are the same. Like weather, your 1)psychological or 3)mental factors are equally for all players.

    Your 2nd reason makes sense, such as Indonesia open which usually has very few quality players. But not true for other open tournaments like all England, or even all the super series this year. Therefore, SS events are still, averagely, better than OG and WC.

    I admit that most player treat WC/OG more seriously. But that doesn't mean the lucky champion is the better one than the open tournament winners. Just think about Tony/Candra, without beating them, the champ is not that convincing to me. Same thing applies to singles too.
     
  9. yuqiu

    yuqiu Regular Member

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    Rexy said he will only call them great pair if they can win in Olympics.

    http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp?file=/2007/1/22/sports/16642256

    Monday January 22, 2007

    Kien Keat-Boon Heong on course for world domination

    YOUNG Malaysian hotshots Koo Kien Keat-Tan Boon Heong are certainly on the right track to rule the world.

    The Asian Games champions created history yesterday when they became the first qualifiers to win a title in the Malaysian Open at the Kuala Lumpur Badminton Stadium.

    And they did it in style – producing a smashing display to beat the formidable American-Indonesian pair of Tony Gunawan-Candra Wijaya 21-15, 21-16 in an exciting men's doubles final.

    It was also a sweet win for the Malaysians, who are ranked 119th in the world, after losing to the the 2000 Sydney Olympics gold medallists just three months ago in the final of the Japan Open.

    [​IMG]
    Joy of winning: Malaysia’s Koo Kien Keat (left) and Tan Boon Heong celebrate after scoring the winning point.
    With their win, Malaysia retained the title won by Kien Keat-Chan Chong Ming last year.

    Kien Keat-Boon Heong are also the first men's pair in almost a decade to win a major back-to-back title for the country.

    The atmosphere in the stadium was electrifying as the spectators eagerly awaited the match of the day.

    The fans did the Mexican Wave too and they were also joined by the dignitaries, including Sports Minister Datuk Azalina Othman Said.

    And Kien Keat-Boon Heong brought out an awesome performance to the delight of the home fans.

    “This is our best match of the tournament. We have created history (the first pair who went all the way to take the title from the qualifying tournament). The feeling is great at this moment,” said the 22-year-old Kien Keat.
    “Never once during the match were we intimidated by the reputation of our opponents,” he said.

    Kien Keat-Boon Heong dictated the pace of the match. They were devastating in attack, solid in their defence and placed shots cleverly.
    But there were anxious moment in the second game when were led 18-12 and allowed Tony-Candra to get back into the game. Fortunately, they recovered quick enough to seal the match.

    Said Boon Heong: “We did not put undue pressure on ourselves even though we had won the Asiad title. It was a whole new battle and our focus was only on beating them.”

    Kien Keat said that they would not allow the win to get to their heads.
    “We will go through the qualifying tournament again in the Korean Open (starting on Tuesday). We have won this tournament and will certainly draw the attention. We still a lot to achieve and we will continue in our effort to improve on our game,” he said.

    Candra-Tony, who won three Open titles last year in South Korea, Japan and Indonesia and are now ranked 16th in the world, gave credit to the Malaysians but said that they were not at their best.

    “It was not our best performance. Our offensive game was too weak. It means that we have a lot of work to do to regain our form,” said Candra.

    Said Tony: “They have certainly improved since we last players them (at the Japan Open). But they are still young and there is room for improvement.

    “But we have recognised and include them in the same league as the other top pairs. Hopefully, we will meet them again in the final of the Korean Open.”

    Coach Rexy Mainaky was quick to remain Kien Keat-Boon Heong to keep their feet formly on the ground.

    “This is their third tournament together and they were in the final in all three. They are young. I hope Boon Heong, especially, will be able to handle it (success) well. This is very important,” said Rexy.

    He was glad that the pair managed to show their home fans that thyeir success in the Doha Asiad was no flash in the pan.

    “The Malaysian fans got to see for themselves what Koo and Tan are capable of. They are complete in terms of speed, defence and attack. It is now important to ensure that they will be mentally ready to continue with a challenging journey,” said Rexy.

    “I will only call them a great pair when they win the gold in the Beijing Olympics (next year).”
     
  10. tjl_vanguard

    tjl_vanguard Regular Member

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    are u msian? if u r, then u will understand why we always relate our players winning the titles...

    cheers ;p
     
  11. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    if great player=win at Olympics, then there are only 3 great single players in the past 15 years (from 1993 to 2007):

    Poul-Erik Hoyer Larsen, Ji Xingpeng and Taufik Hidayat

    But none of those 3 players are ever dominant in open tournaments.

    Same thing for the tennis, according to that formular, only Rossat, Kafelnikov and Nicolás Massú are great players, others aren't. Even Sampras, Federer are not great players.

    I fully understand why Rexy saying that. Because he got money from Malaysia government, and Malaysian government's goal is Olympics. Rexy just works for the money instead of the truth. Rexy never care about the truth. He is a profession coach only care about his job, and his bonus. But we are the professional fans who care about the truth: who is the best player. Only we can keep politics and money aside and only explore the truth.

    BTW, I'm not a msian, but I think KKK/TBH are the best currently. Even someone else claim the WC or OG tomorrow, KKK/TBH are still the best since they have been proved 3 times.
     
  12. Inky2000

    Inky2000 Regular Member

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    First of all, I'm not trying to argue that KKK/TBH need to win WC & OG titles to prove that they are great players. We still have doubt whether they are great players until they can prove that they are consistently good several years down the road. Only the time can prove it and I agree that WC & OG titles are not prerequisites.

    What I'm trying to argue below is that WC & OG are more competitive events than other SS events.

    > Your point 1) and 3) are the same. Like weather, your 1)psychological or 3)mental factors are equally for all players.

    I raised the third point with MAS players in mind (just take them as an example) - most of their top players could do well in 4* (or below) tournaments but not 5*/6* ones, as observed by our fellow posters on this forum. WC/OG requires MUCH greater mental strengths than other tournaments and that applies to all players. With an extra (and significant) "burden" for the players, I argue that WC/OG are tougher to play.

    > Your 2nd reason makes sense, such as Indonesia open which usually has very few quality players. But not true for other open tournaments like all England, or even all the super series this year. Therefore, SS events are still, averagely, better than OG and WC.

    No, among SS events, AE's prestige is well ahead of others - recall that the media used to rave about Taufik being the first (?) player who managed to win WC, OG and AE titles within the same 4-year cycle. On the other hand, top players of individual countries might skip other SS events now and then, and it often has something to do with the timing, e.g., A time clash with their country's own major games or badminton events that even national players are required to play, or their coaches decide to keep them back home for a 4-month uninterrupted training prior to a prestiguous event (other than WC/OG, there are also Sudirman Cup and TC/UC), or a 1-month training prior to their own grand prix event (and skip a couple of grand prix events held a week or two prior to that). There are always prioritization issue in this regard.

    Let's take last year's 4*/5*/6* grand prix tournaments (I wanted to exclude 4* but then I found out the most prestiguous AE'06 was a 4* event, so ...) as examples and see who were the top MS players (i.e., potential world champions only) who skipped them (for whatever reason),

    Swiss Open - LD, BCL, CH, CJ, CY, KJ, Taufik
    AE - CY, Taufik
    China Masters - LCW, Taufik
    INA Open - LD, CH, CJ, PG
    Philippine Open - LD, BCL, LCW, CH, CJ, CY, PG, KJ, Taufik
    S'pore Open - LD, LCW, CJ, Taufik
    M'sia Open - BCL, CY, Taufik
    Chinese Taipei Open - BCL, CY, PG, KJ, Taufik
    Macau Open - PG, KJ
    Korea Open - LD, BCL, CH, CJ, PG, Taufik
    HK Open - BCL, PG, Taufik
    Japan Open - CJ, KJ
    China Open - LCW, PG, KJ
    Denmark Open - LD, BCL, LCW, CJ, Taufik

    (The IBF online database was down right after I finished checking out MS top players' participation records. I can compile the MD listing when it's up again.)

    And what about WC'06? Among the above-mentioned top players, the only one who missed WC'06 (and the reason: victim of country quota rules) is ... CY.

    So, if you compare the "cast list" between WC'06 and the above-listed events, which is the most competitive event?????

    > I admit that most player treat WC/OG more seriously. But that doesn't mean the lucky champion is the better one than the open tournament winners. Just think about Tony/Candra, without beating them, the champ is not that convincing to me. Same thing applies to singles too.

    Tony/Candra is a very very rare case - for a potential world champion pair who is representing different countries thus would potentially miss WC even though they are qualified.

    On the other hand, I would like to rephrase what I've written in my previous posting - not that only the best player winning the WC title could be considered a "convincing result", because (1) Who is the best is always arguable; (2) Even if all the best players are allowed to compete in WC/OG, there's no guarantee that the best player would win. I believe that as long as all the top-5 or top-10 players (not necessarily according to the world rankings but mainly those widely recognized top ones) compete in the events and one of them win, I'm convinced.
     
  13. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    my two points need to be made clearer:

    1) There is no such thing a tournament is tougher for everyone. I said only the competitors make the tournaments difficult, not environment. All tournaments have just one winner. It cannot be tougher for everyone. According to what you said, it sounds like OG/WC are tougher only for people mentally weak but easier for those mentally tougher. That's the reason I said the winners at OG/WC (especially OG for smaller scale) are not the best.

    It sounds like we saw the same thing, but from different angle.

    2) Open tournaments are open to everyone, if someone miss it, only because he chose not to participate, but OG/WC took away your rights to play. That's the difference.

    Thanks for the history data. But I remember that in the AG 2002, when Lin dan was ranked number 1, but he cannot compete in the singles although he was the 1st singles in the team events. If those are the places to determine the best player, why not let the best player to play?
     
  14. Inky2000

    Inky2000 Regular Member

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    > I said only the competitors make the tournaments difficult, not environment.

    > Open tournaments are open to everyone, if someone miss it, only because he chose not to participate, but OG/WC took away your rights to play. That's the difference.

    Exactly. In determining which event is more competitive, what I'm interested is the ACTUAL, FINAL "CAST LIST" of each tournament, not the strictness of the qualification rules. Say 2006 for example, an MS event who fails to bring in one of the top-6 players (players with the greatest potential for being world champions - LD, Taufik, PG, LCW, BCL, CJ; CY wasn't ready by then!) is considered "incomplete". Among all the events I've listed, only WC had all these players participated in. The rest - at least one of these 6 players skipped each of them for various reasons, which makes the cast list less attractive than WC. You are right to say that the cast list determines the competitiveness of each event and therefore, the most competitive event happens to be the WC who has the strongest cast list (not by chance, but because all the best players don't want to miss this ... if they have to choose between AE and WC, they will definitely skip AE and go for WC) despite of stricter qualification rules.

    > All tournaments have just one winner. It cannot be tougher for everyone.

    But due to the prestige of WC and OG, being a world champion or an Olympic Gold Medalist is very different from winning, say, SO or China Masters title. Players who lack mental strength are easier to get nervous in prestiguous events. In other words, the status of an event often poses a huge psychological effect to the players (Hey ... if I miss it this time in OG, I need to wait for 4 more years to become a Gold Medalist, yes, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDALIST!!! Can I still play well 4 years down the road? But, if I fail to win the SO title ... so what? There are always other SS events). However, the effect may reduce for WC's case since it has become an annual event.

    > Thanks for the history data. But I remember that in the AG 2002, when Lin dan was ranked number 1, but he cannot compete in the singles although he was the 1st singles in the team events. If those are the places to determine the best player, why not let the best player to play?

    We are talking about this coming WC and OG for KKK/TBH, not the AG five years back.
     
    #14 Inky2000, Mar 19, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2007
  15. little_bird

    little_bird Regular Member

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    I think it's pointless to argue who's great and who's the greatest.

    The thing that we're looking for in Malaysia players are no less than consistency and discipline. It doesn't matter if you're the greatest by winning the WC and OG, end up being eliminated in the first round or so.

    We've been witnessing too much of such examples in Malaysia badminton history and hopefully, KKK-TBH will defy the odd, proving to the world that their so far is not a fluke.

    My message remain the same: Stands tall, but be humble all the time. I guess this is something that Rexy Mainaky is looking in them.
     
  16. ck1981

    ck1981 Regular Member

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    Ya, we Malaysians just want to see consistency and discipline from our players. Nothing more than that.
     
  17. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

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    I agree with Inky2000. I'm not really interested in getting into another debate right now but I really don't think your points make a lot of sense 2cents. I've said it before, you're not looking very far into this. You're pointing out things totally irrelevant... It kind of sounds as if you're trying to say the number 1 player needs to win the tournament every time for it to be held in high regard?

    No you don't have to win the OG or WC to be seen as a great player, but that doesn't mean you should see the OG/WC as lesser tournaments. There's just no sense in that. Those that do win these tournaments though certainly deserve respect for their achievement. And the environment/atmosphere DOES have an effect on the difficulty of the tournament. There's so much more to it than just the competitors. It's totally narrow-minded to think of it that way.
     
  18. valen

    valen Regular Member

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    I think for MS, you forgot the Indonesian guy...that guy who married Susi Susanto (is the name correct?) ...I forgot his name. Both of them won in the Olympics! I think Sydney 2000 game??
     
  19. phaarix

    phaarix Regular Member

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    Like I said you don't have to win the OG/WC to be a great player. That's just limiting the number of theoretical great players which is stupid, and I agree with that. But don't look down on the OG/WC because of that. Just because you can be great without winning these touraments doesn't mean you don't have to be great to win them.
     
  20. sabathiel

    sabathiel Regular Member

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    I agree that takes less to win an Olympic gold compared to a Super Series tournament because of the quotas imposed on each country, less entries and no qualifying rounds.

    However winning an Olympic gold once or a World Championship once doesn't necessarily make that player in the category of the greats of the game. I wouldn't apply the term "great" lightly to any player. One would have to be dominant in the game by winning many tournaments and not just one big tournament such as All England, the Olympics or the World Championship. Is a player like Alan Budi Kusuma, winner of Olympic gold in the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, considered a great player? Alan Budi Kusuma has never won an All England or World Championships. Just because he won a highly prestigious badminton gold at the Olympics doesn't make him great. To be great one would have to look at the totality of the player's career achivements. Similarly Icuk Sugiarto, winner of 1983 World Championships, cannot be considered great either because that was his only major badminton title although no doubt it was a big one. Arguably the All England is most prestigious open badminton tournament being the oldest badminton tournament by far but does winning this event once put you in the league of the greats of badminton? If yes, then players such as Pullela Gopichand and Muhammad Hafiz Hashim would be considered great players. Don't get me wrong by saying they are not great doesn't mean that they are not good. No doubt they are good players but they are not great.

    No doubt the Olympics is the most prestigious badminton event arguably however that doesn't mean it is the most competitive or tough title to win. It is only prestigious because it is held every 4 years and the winner is considered as a sporting national hero in their respective countries. Badminton powerhouses such as Indonesia, Malaysia and Denmark are Olympic dwarves because they struggle to get an Olympic medal let alone a gold medal. So winning an Olympic gold for players from these countries is th highest honour they can get and the publicity is enormous to the nation. The audience would not only be the badminton audience but fans of other sports would also be exposed to the fact that the nation has got gold at the Olympics when most possibly all the other sports couldn't produce any medals. Even with Olympic giants like China the exposure of an Olympic gold medalist is enormous. The gold medalists is an automatic national hero.

    The attention on Super Series winners would be much less than the Olympics and this is evident in the number of journalists covering the Olympics. So the greatness of an Olympic gold medalist is more to do with hype rather than the competitive nature of the badminton Olympic event.
     

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