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BAM warns Mohd Hafiz Hashim & Kuan Beng Hong

Discussion in 'Malaysia Professional Players' started by chris-ccc, Jan 31, 2009.

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  1. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^That's..^^

    ..the whole point in my initial post in this thread...glad you've come around to realize it..:cool:
     
  2. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    The whole point in my initial post in this thread

    .
    Sorry that I still don't realise it. :eek::eek::eek:
    Please explain.
    .
     
  3. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^See above..^^

    ..post #59, last paragpraph..;)
     
  4. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    MAS promising younger players to get a chance to show their potential ability

    .
    Post#59, last paragraph says
    Not that simple ... Because if HH and KBH were to be selected to compete most of the time, then the other MAS promising younger players would find that they have less chance (talking about limited BAM budget) to show their potential ability.

    Misbun needs to take risk, and to allow younger players to come in.
    .
     
    #64 chris-ccc, Feb 3, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2009
  5. badadum

    badadum Regular Member

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    Hehe, we've one gent from the land down under and one star and stripes guy bantering on how Misbun should based his selection criteria... where's the MAS fans (that hopefully has more insight)??? :D

    BTW chris, I doubt that Ayoob or LTS is better than HH and deserve the MAS #2 MS slots (if we're going by ranking alone).
     
  6. Dato A

    Dato A Regular Member

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    If it is not as simple as you said, how hard is it?

    Misbun take no risk by de-listing HH and KBH and replace them with others. It is a waste of time and chance given to them as they are not performing as expected.
     
  7. koo_fan

    koo_fan Regular Member

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    Bam had selected what tournaments they were going to consider for these two players,dont they?
    So,when things are simple,make it simpler.Misbun doesn't have to go look on their determination anymore.He had been provided with the guidelines.
    If they proved to be worth in our team,of course we'd want them to stay.
    (i'd want to because we've spent so much time and such a waste if they simply walked out after years)
    Step up and take the challenge,both Hafiz and Tsuen Seng!
     
  8. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Anyway..

    Of course, HH & KBH have been selected to compete in tourneys. But what are their results?? i've given mine (post #39), and now waiting for chris@ccc's data. Sure, the MAS' younger players should be allowed to come in and compete more. No one is questioning that, at least not me.
    That's one of the reason why BAM is giving this "warning" to both HH & KBH, put up or be axed, so they can move on with the re-generation process/sending younger players to compete.

    ..maybe i'm typing too fast or the point i'm trying to get across is too vague or maybe both of us are discussing about 2 totally different point of views...:confused:

    My point, from the initial post, is:
    How else will Misbun (as the person in charge & responsible) determine whether HH and/or KBH deserve or don't deserve to stay in the National squad? And my response is, wouldn't it be simpler just by looking at the tournaments' results/accomplishments from those 2 players? And yes, i've listed their last 10 tournaments' results (post #39). It's simple.

    However, chris@ccc, for some reason or another, goes on a different tangent and prefers to have a different set of criterias for Misbun to consider as well, as posted in post #58. Great. But now the question is, how will Misbun formulate those criterias in deciding whether HH and/or KBH should or should not stay on the National team?

    My suggestion is a simple one. chris@ccc seems to go on a different route.
    :confused:

    Btw, how long have HH & KBH been competing for the National squad??..:confused:

    ..i hope i'm not getting more vague...:p

    *badadum, i think the MAS folks get it.;)
     
    #68 ctjcad, Feb 3, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  9. Pemuda

    Pemuda Regular Member

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    hehehehehe :D:D;)
     
  10. badadum

    badadum Regular Member

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    Hence the request for them to share their view. ;)
     
  11. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Wouldn't it be simpler just by looking at the tournaments' results/accomplishments?

    .
    ctjcad ... If the selection of players is to be as simple as:
    then, HH and KBH would stay longer.

    This is because, currently, the players in my quote do not have results/accomplishments better than HH's and KBH's.
    At training sessions, if the quoted players can consistently defeat HH and KBH, then we can expect Misbun to replace HH and KBH ASAP. But HH and KBH are still more skillful than them.

    At international tournaments, within the next few months, we will still expect HH and KBH to achieve better results than those younger players. But let's see. :p

    Conclusion:
    So if it is based on just results/accomplishments, then we would expect Misbun to tell BAM that HH and KBH can stay.
    .
     
  12. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Different coaches have different ways of selecting players

    .
    Actually, the topic of the decision from a coach to include or to exclude players is quite interesting. Different coaches have different views on it. And sometimes players are very badly affected by some decisions.

    Just look at LYB's decisions... see how they affected some CHN players.

    I am sure many coaches/captains of Badminton teams in schools are reading our views here. Yes, everybody want to play for their school, so how do we select them? I have seen top school players producing excellent results being excluded because of disciplinary reasons. And I have seen average players selected just because their coaches thought they have potential.

    The truth is there is no correct answer. Different coaches have different ways of selecting players.

    :):):)
    .
     
    #72 chris-ccc, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  13. koo_fan

    koo_fan Regular Member

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    Their results will appeared to be better because the juniors are rarely selected to be in the tournaments rather than them.You can expect the statistics of their results.
    Hafiz and Tsuen Seng are our top seed and what BAm is trying to do now is to remove them from the list,and replace them with others.
    And the conditions to stay is given.
    So,Yes.Follow the flow.If the selected tour is the last chance, i'd be ready to let them go.But of course i've prayed for them.
     
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Hmm..almost at a lost..

    ..well, so far we have:
    1. 2 MAS BCers giving their opinion(s).
    2. While the rest probably either don't care or already know what to expect from HH & KBH and are just waiting for the final verdict; thus why waste another post..;)
    ..i am completely speechless after reading this...

    Looks like chris@ccc has taken training session results as a basis to keep HH & KBH in the national team.

    If it's simply "At training sessions, if the younger players can consistently defeat HH and KBH, then we can expect Misbun to replace HH and KBH ASAP. But HH and KBH are still more skillful than them."..

    My responses are :
    1. "So??..What have they done lately in real international tournaments?" (still waiting for chris@ccc's data)..
    2. If HH & KBH are "really skillful than the juniors" then why the current "warning" from BAM?? :confused:

    Further:

    1. Does sparring or training results really tell how good a player is once s/he competes in real international tourneys??..:confused:
    2. How in the world can we compare 2 players who have been playing in more tourneys to their younger counterparts who haven't competed in as many tourneys as HH & KBH??..
    3. So, by saying "if it is based on just results/accomplishments, then we would expect Misbun to tell BAM that HH and KBH can stay", essentially it's saying HH's & KBH's performance in those tourneys are acceptable & they can stay further??..:confused:..
    4. Again, back to the old saying or maybe a Janet Jackson's song's lyric "What have you done for me, lately?"..

    As a response to the conclusion:
    I am referring to results/accomplishments of tournaments they've played in. Not some training/sparring session's results.

    Looks like koo_fan probably understands this "warning from BAM" more...;)
     
    #74 ctjcad, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  15. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    It is not a simple matter and it is not easy for Misbun to decide

    .
    :D:D:D Make it 3 ... because I am also a MAS BCer, but residing in Melbourne, Australia.
    Correct, IMHO the reason why BAM complained about HH and KBH is because BAM think that they can do better for MAS, not only at international results for Malaysia's name, but also in internal training sessions as well.

    This is why it is not a simple matter and it is not easy for Misbun to decide. On one hand, MIsbun knows that HH and KBH can produce better results than the others at international events, but on the other hand, at training, the others show more enthusiasm than HH and KBH (so I've been told).
    Most likely YES than NO.
    It's been reported that MAS younger counterparts will be given more chances to represent MAS in the future. We can only wait and see if they can do better that HH and KBH.

    IMHO, the younger ones are not ready yet, but we should give them a chance to try.
    We shall wait and see.
    That's exactly it. What have HH and KBH done or not done, in terms of both international results and in internal preparation to international tournaments for the MAS Team? I am sure Misbun is asking that question 24/7.

    BAM is hoping for both. Not only that international results are important, but also internal strength and unity.

    On this note: Would you say that LYB and ZM have done the wrong thing for China?
    koo_fan said it's best for the younger ones to enter more competitions, instead of sending HH and KBH most of the time.

    We shall now wait and see. :):):)

    Personally, I think it's time for HH and KBH to go. But Misbun will make the final decision.
    .
     
    #75 chris-ccc, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  16. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^I think we're getting there...or maybe we are there??^^

    So now you acknowledge that HH & KBH "can do better" and/or "can produce better" results in international tourneys. No matter what they do in training/sparring sessions, internal strength & unity etc., at the end of the day it is the international tourneys' results that count. They are being sent and they must produce. Thus it is a simple matter to decide. Heck even most of the MAS BCers can see their results.

    As for your answer of "Does sparring or training results really tell how good a player is one s/he competes in real international tourneys?
    Most likely YES than NO.", i take it the training results have been the same if not equal to their international tourneys' results?

    Why would Misbun ask the question of "What have HH and KBH done or not done, in terms of both international results and in internal preparation to international tournaments for the MAS Team?" when he saw the results, himself.
    As for finding out their international results, heck, he even can google over to BWF's website to find out. Even chris@ccc can find out their results online. What is there to think about? 24/7?...:confused:

    As for the question of : "Would you say that LYB and ZM have done the wrong thing for China?". My answer is, there are possibly several factors for the decision to let ZM go. On that note, i think we shall leave that discussion out of this thread as it's not related to the current thread topic.

    I guess i'll just ask these questions, which haven't been answered:

    1. Same question back, what results/accomplishments have HH & KBH done in their international tourneys? Any datas to show? I've given my datas for their last 10 tourneys (courtesy of BWF's website).

    2. How long have HH & KBH been in the National squad?

    3. And if KBH & HH are really "more skillful than their juniors" why is BAM giving both a "warning" by certain tournament? Shouldn't their "more skillful talent" last them to stay in the national squad?
     
    #76 ctjcad, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  17. Oldhand

    Oldhand Moderator

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    Here's another look at the quandary Misbun is in:

    At the 2008 Singapore Open:
    - Tan Chun Seang beat China's Gong Weijie and Korea's Hong Ji Hoon... and then fought a noteworthy 3-game battle against Peter Gade. Yes, TCS lost... but quite honourably 10-21 21-17 19-21
    - Kuan Beng Hong scalped team-mate Roslin Hashim and Thailand's Boonsak Ponsana before falling to an inspired Andrew Smith of England

    At last month's Malaysia Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong took a game off Korea's Park Sung-Hwan. Around the same time, Hafiz Hashim embarrassed himself against Indonesia's Simon Santoso. First game - just 5 points for the former All England champion :eek: (Um, HH doubled his take in the second game!)

    A while later, at the Korea Open 2009, Kuan Beng Hong managed 12 and 16 against Simon Santoso... almost twice what the senior Malaysian managed.

    Additionally: At the Macau Open 2008, Kuan Beng Hong beat grandmaster Wong Choong Hann (and also Vietnam's Nguyen Tien Minh). That isn't something Hafiz Hashim could hope to do against even a retired Choong Hann.

    In essence, I'd suggest the active Kuan Beng Hong retain his place on the team while the passive Hafiz Hashim make way for someone with a more determined streak... perhaps Tan Chun Seang :)
     
  18. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Even though HH and KBH are not doing well, they are still better than their teammates

    .
    Yes... Currently, even though HH and KBH are not doing well at international tournaments, they are still doing better than their teammates.

    No... Currently, most MAS BCers are hoping that more MAS 'up-and-coming' players can produce better international results (compared to HH's and KBH's). Only when this happens, then it's time for HH and KBH to go.

    BTW, I would hope that more MAS 'up-and-coming' players can be exposed to more international tournaments, instead of HH an KBH taking the majority of them.

    This I would say to BAM: Please allow MAS 'up-and-coming' players to prove themselves.
    :eek::eek::eek: If HH and/or KBH can defeat most MAS 'up-and-coming' players at this moment of time, why should HH and KBH be replaced by them? Let's also look at HH's and KBH's views.
    :eek::eek::eek: It's repeated here: Because no younger MAS 'up-and-coming' players can produce better results than HH and KBH. It's all done in 'COMPARISON' between all MAS teammates.

    That's exactly it. Misbun should look at several factors before he makes the decision to let HH and KBH go. Therefore, it's not a simple matter.

    Answers:
    1. HH & KBH have done lousy in their international tourneys. But they are still better than what have been achieved by other MAS 'up-and-coming' players.

    2. It doesn't matter how long a player has been in the National squad. This is never a factor invloved.

    3. Because BAM think that KBH & HH are not working hard enough.
    .
     
    #78 chris-ccc, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  19. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^It's a grind, but getting there..^^

    1. I was referring "their results" as in HH's & KBH's results. Not the other MAS younger players' results. I'm sure most MAS BCers know how HH's & KBH's results look like.;)

    2. Well, that's exactly the question of why is BAM giving both HH & KBH a "warning" now? My answer is, because BAM wants to see what they can do in the next few tournaments to justify & retain their spot in the national team.

    3. Don't want to get into this, but can you really relate ZM's passage with HH's & KBH's passage??
    As far as i can remember, ZM didn't participate in any major competition in 2006 (she had to deal w/injuries). But when she did, she definitely did better with the opportunities she had in comparison to both KBH & HH. On the other hand, both KBH and HH had been given ample opportunities to compete & show what they can do but look at their results.
    http://internationalbadminton.org/player_info.asp?playerid=7821 (Zhou Mi's data)
    It's simple because one just needs to look at their results.
    ZM didn't leave the National team because of her performance, but rather mostly because of other factors.
    While HH's & KBH's fate will be determined by their performance, yes, esp. in their upcoming tourneys.

    Thank you for answering them.:)
    4. Glad you are acknowledging their results. But, if, as you wrote a few times that they're "better", really, how much "better" are KBH & HH compared to the MAS juniors?? Any titles to show for?..
    Btw, i don't see any stats/datas on HH's & KBH's training/sparring results on BWF's website, have you?? Does BWF keep track of those stats? Anyone else sees them??..:confused:;)

    5. The reason why i asked the 2nd question is to show how much ample opportunities BAM has given to HH & KBH. Yet, for all the time and opportunities given to both, what have they shown?? What have they done for me, err, for BAM, lately??..
    Like Pemuda has repeatedly harped on, doesn't the National team use the taxpayer's money to sponsor them? All those money spent, yet...

    6. If so, do tell me/us, in your opinion, how and on what basis does BAM think KBH & HH are not working hard enough?..

    Hmmm, maybe i should give Pemuda a ring and ask him to chime in, in this thread...[​IMG]...oh, he did already (post #8);)

    *Oldhand, Pemuda might say it's all good & dandy with KBH's results, but what other titles has he got to show other than his Mickey Mou.., eerr, Malaysia International Open title??..;)
     
    #79 ctjcad, Feb 4, 2009
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2009
  20. limsy

    limsy Regular Member

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    no credit for liew daren beat bp and chong wei feng beat chen jin?:D
     
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