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BWF to implement a replay system to check disputes over line calls

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by chris-ccc, Jun 21, 2011.

  1. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    You mean so simple that a money loaded organisation like FIFA won't do it for goal line controversies. hehe. But yes, right step in the right direction.

    Looking at replays on TV, it looks like the frame rate would have to be much faster to improve the positive predictive value.

    I agree that 2 challenges seems too few, unless you mean 2 challenges per game. If you had more than 4 challenges (>2x2) over the whole match, would that be too disruptive? Personally, I think it would be good for the game. Commentators have a bit more time to do analysis and commentate.
     
  2. 2wheels04

    2wheels04 Regular Member

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    Hot-Spot is better technology for badminton then Hawk-Eye

    Hawk-Eye is probability based technology, and uses multi-variate input and deductions to predict the path of the ball. It may make tennis more enjoyable for telly, but in cricket, the adoption has not been universal.

    Hot-Spot, which uses infra-red technology for cent-percent determination of the exact contact of the cricket ball, has better advantage. Badminton may be better suited to test the feasibility by having a single overhead hot-spot camera that scans all court lines.

    Look out for an extra ear-piece on the umpire. Any time an umpire has more information at hand to take the correct decision, that can only be good. The discussions on this forum may read slightly different from then on.

    Even for the replay and challenges, how they work in match conditions may need a lot of fine tuning before the final directive comes from KL. Expect a lot of experimentation at GP and GPG events.

    Technology may help in playing a role in increasing the already-high percentage of correct line calls in badminton. If use of replay/video reviews, or high tech cameras remove the rare instance of incorrect line call, then so much the better.
     
    #22 2wheels04, Jun 24, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  3. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    All bwf need to do is to do an experiment and give small funds to a few selected vendors to display their expertise and feasibility.

    This is what governments do to get project started. I don't think BWF is that poor with massage chairs giving aways.... lol ;)

    Eg. you can even put a camera in front of the linesmen and if there are disputes, press a button to playback and see it together with umpire or referee. Why the red tape or bureaucracy? Think out of the box. ;)

    Do it for qtr final, semis and final.
     
  4. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    DRS: the focal point of the ICC annual conference

    Thought you might be interested in knowing......

    ICC is the International Cricket Council.

    Full report: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci-icc/content/current/story/520615.html
     
  5. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ..that's fine. Personally, i could care less if they want to mimic tennis or table tennis or cricket or other sports in only using the replay system in selected courts or matches; or from which round they'll start using it. I guess we'll just have to wait and see..
    ..i like the idea of having this replay system start at GP and/or GPG events, as guinea pig events for the proposed replay system, just to see how it goes.
    Overall, i just feel the video replay system is sufficient and probably the most cost effective. If the call is too tough to make either way, then the players just have to accept whatever umpire's decision it is and move on..
     
    #25 ctjcad, Jun 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2011
  6. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    one thing for sure is it will slow the game real down
     
  7. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    max 2 challenges per match per side = 4x max per match

    if each video replay and challenge is 15 secs long, that means 1 minute max in the whole match

    i don't see how the game will be slowed down :rolleyes:... towel breaks are longer than 15 secs fyi
     
  8. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ..the replays might be replayed more than once, but imo, it shouldn't be more than 3x; esp. if additional/better angles are needed. I think the "slow down" is meant by lack of flow/more interruptions.
     
  9. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    on the contrary, it's 'minimum' not max challenges/game, match or whatever they decided. as if your challenge being upheld, you keep that challenge for later on.

    you can almost forseen that at the later stage of the game, the unused challenges will be used to have a short break, or to break your opponent's winning streak, as in tennis.
     
  10. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    .
    This is true: If your challenge is being upheld, you keep that challenge for another time later on.

    So, there could be more than 2 video replays for each opponent in a match. :):):)
    .
     
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    But still falls within the rules, right?
     
  12. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    So far no one rejecting correct? Lets rock and roll. Breaks are at umpires discretion. Normally the players will purposely fall down to get 'that' break they want. ;)
     
  13. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    You're quite correct about the DRS being sufficient. Badminton is played under controlled and controllable conditions. The only real issue is the speed and size of the shuttlecock, and the fact that it bends out of shape under pressure. This is the reason why you need a (preferably static) 6-camera setup (7 if you include the overhead cam) with high-speed recording that allows you to playback in slow-mo for accurate analysis. Again, it is the cost of this setup that may baulk the organisers from installing it at every court, and every event.

    The DRS typically comes in useful under 2 situations:

    Where there is a really bad (or suspected "favoured") line call, and the player is confident that his challenge will be successful. In that case he will not have used up the challenge.

    Where for any reason the bird has been obscured or the linesman has been unsighted at the critical moment.

    Personally I feel that 2 challenges per side per game is more than sufficient. It maintains a decent balance between the use of technology and the human side. It has also been proven to keep the linesmen and umpires more active (honest? on their toes? :)) without being a threat to their presence: the DRS is after all, there to help them do their job better, not to supplant them.
     
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Disagree on the ordinary video being sufficient. I believe the frame rate is not fast enough, nor high enough resolution to capture that crucial point of impact of the floor.

    If you are going to use it, I feel it must provide a much clearer view, otherwise the umpires are going to be in a very difficult position.
     
  15. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    On the contrary, as I said I am not a luddite. My concerns are the "technology" they are looking to implement is not very high tech and on the marginal calls may still not do what it is suppose to do.

    Yes, but AlanY's point was that it would slow the game. I partially agree, since a typical game is 20 mins, it may add 3 mins for example or 15% to the total match time. However it is likely that the challenges would be also used as a towel break so it may not be as severe as this

    I agree, It will certainly have to be a lot better than the TV replays they have for the viewers only - on most of the marginal ones I can't tell the result.
     
  16. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    A player, when challenging a call, may also be seeking for it to be called a "let"

    .
    Don't forget that we do not have only 2 options (of a call), namely; "in" or "out", but also the 3rd option, which allows the shot to be called a "let".

    For a marginal call, when players, umpires, linespersons, coaches, etc, ...... are all unsure, we have Law 14.2.6 which states that;

    It shall be a "let”, if a line judge is unsighted and the umpire is unable to make a decision.

    So, with the video replay to be implemented, Law 14.2.6 would need to be amended to: It shall be a "let”, if a line judge is unsighted or the video replay does not show with conclusive evidence, and the umpire is unable to make a decision. :):):)

    Often we find player asking linesperson/umpire with this question; "I was very close to the line, and the shuttlecock hit the ground at a very high speed. If I couldn't tell if it was "in" or "out", so how could you?".

    Therefore, a player, when challenging a call, may also be seeking for a shot to be called a "let".
    .
     
    #36 chris-ccc, Jun 25, 2011
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2011
  17. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    A call of Let will always however leave one of the players aggrieved. I can imagine seeing a video, one players thinks it is in, the other thinks it is out. there are three options as you say in, out or let two decisions mean one side is aggrieved (In or out) and the other leaves them both feeling aggrieved.

    This is why it is better (IMHO) to either have nothing and leave it as the current system, or have a clear system which gives a decision one way or the other. I have said in the previous thread on this subject that I think the money is better spent on the players prize money rather than costly systems such as this.
     
  18. Pakito

    Pakito Regular Member

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    So it literally means after a player has used up 2x, the system of line calls is open to abuse again.
     
  19. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    How much time can it waste if it's qtrfinals onwards?

    Never try never know. Too much worry is not going to help. If it fails, then ditch it. ;)
     
  20. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    what kind of replay system do you think is sufficient??..
    I also consider the cost factor..
    I think HD recording is also an acceptable & sufficient form of video replay..
     

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