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Confirmation of Spanish interview

Discussion in 'Olympics 2016 - RIO' started by Cheung, Aug 25, 2016.

  1. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    In my wife's translation there is the reference to some championship (WC?) that I did not identified and was too lazy to look up for. It should not be the WC final, because LXR never won the WC if I remember correctly.
    S_Mair's wife's translation would be better because my wife grew up in South America but is still not a native speaker. Though the Spanish spoken in Spain is in any case quite different then the ones in the Americas.
     
  2. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Justin,

    I frankly don't agree with your position. As I have mentioned before, we have to be careful of translations. I bet international marriages have their differences due to something lost in translation. (Heck, even ordinary marriages have the same problems).

    If Carolina was referring to a previous match that her and LXR had, and therefore Carolina was being careful of tactics and keeping focus, then I have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

    However, that doesn't mean I like her. If you cast your memories back to the 2015 HK Open final, she was playing Nozomi Okuhara. Nozomi had chased back the match points. At Carolina's match point, she got a reprimand from the umpire, ignored the umpire, walked off the court and forced the umpire to award a yellow card. This was a deliberate ploy at creating a delay in the game and disturb the run of points and momentum that Nozomi had built up. Unfortunately, it did affect Nozomi who made a mistake to hand the match to Carolina. I knew Carolina heard the umpire as I was sitting right by courtside to make that judgement.


    Now, while I admire the will to win and tactics, I still try to be play fair and judge each and every moment as clearly and impartially as possible. So, for this particular statement in the interview in Spanish, it goes in my possible but not totally proven list.
     
  3. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Then shouldn't Marin give LXR the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise instead of blurting out that incriminating statement about LXR faking injury as a strategy. What happened in the past between them and which match she's referring to, nobody knows except herself, it seems.

    Being careful of tactics doesn't justify that post-match remark of hers, most ordinary, normal,sensible people would just let it go esp when the opponent tried to resume after her injury was attended to but couldn't move properly to concede the next few points to a final conclusion because, I presume, LXR didn't want to look like a loser. As visor fairly and in a balanced post on LXR's thread said, and I quote, "Actually, it was foolishly stubborn of LXR to continue playing to the end of the match after her injury. She should have just ended it right there. As it was, she very likely made the injury worse by most likely extending the tears in the ACL and the meniscus.I thing it was in a post match interview that she said that she doesn't back down easily and never wants to show any weakness to her opponents."

    It seems that some people are either backtracking starting to wobble or subtly shifting their positions as an afterthought.

    When I posted the news as a messenger and Alan Y was kind enough to post the link to the bbs discussion which contained a Chinese translation of the Spanish audio clip, doubt was cast on its accuracy or even its authenticity was questioned. Then renbo offered to get his wife to do the translation which was posted here and we all took it on trust and with thanks. Both you and renbo even expressed your stand in reaction to it. Now what ?

    To me, it's very simple, just ask yourself whether you would have done what Marin did at the post-match interview ?

    Anyway, I've done my part, said my piece and I'm done with it. I won't reply to any such related posts unless something new cropped up.

    "Do not do to others what you would not like them to do to you." - Kongzi (Analects 15:23)
     
  4. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Talking about something being lost in translations, no doubt, but how much can a simple day-to-day conversation go wrong for one who is conversant with or effectively bilingual, not to mention professional translators, with translating or interpreting the two languages.

    In a court of law, we often have translators or interpreters and the judicial officers,judges and justices aren't too worried about the subtleties and niceties of the language and the ordinary meaning of the words being lost or misrepresented in translations. International relations are always conducted based on translations where the parties involved don't speak the same language.

    Down here, we're so worried about a badminton player's words being misunderstood for want of a decent translation.;):D
     
  5. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    Just to be clear - I am far from trying to convince anybody in here of anything in that matter. And I have to add that it doesn't seem to be clear from the interview alone which previous match Carolina was referring to. And renbo is fully correct - the spanish spoken in Spain differs quite a bit from the one that is spoken in Latin- and South America so there will always be a couple of differences or imprecisions in different translations.

    Leaving aside the details, I think it's crucial that the general message and intention of the interview was not to further talk down LXR but for Carolina to explain and in a way justify why she's acted like she did. I can imagine that she was confronted by quite a lot of people who felt her behaviour in the final moments of the match was not right. And I feel that this interview has been made a far bigger thing than it actually was - also with the press deliberately taking one sentence out of context and creating a separate story with it.

    Again:
    Have I ever watched a full match with Carolina in it without shaking my head at least once in complete lack of understanding about the way she behaves on court? No.
    Do I think Carolina acted correctly on court when LXR obviously was injured? Hell no.
    But is that interview a reason to condemn her even more? I don't think so.

    And as a side note, I think we should be very careful not to mix up two things in our subconcious. Yes, it was Carolina who was on the other side of the net the moment when LXR was injured. But it was not she who jumped to the other side and pushed LXR on that unlucky landing or hit her on the knee with a steel tube or stuff like that.
     
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  6. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    This.

    This is exactly the way I feel. Again, my Spanish is as rusty as it can get, but hearing the interview - the whole interview - it's clear that the initial sentences making the rounds at the net, was out of context.

    There's a HUGE difference between talking about what went through her mind on court, before the match was over, and then talk about her opponent in general, after the match.

    And I really don't understand that so many people here, fail to comprehend that distinction.

    Otherwise, my stance towards Marin is exactly the same as S_Mair and so many others here. I'm simply not a fan of so many things about her. I have no intentions to talk her up, or make her look good, frankly I don't care. But I'm not going to be a part of the mob here... This is the one way street to make players hated on the forums, and it's unfair.
     
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  7. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    That is how Cai Yun also reacted, saying that at the time she was in the heat of the match and did not know what was the case
     
  8. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    No way Justin. My opinion is I can have the right to adjust my position with new information (and in this case, a better translation with context).

    For example, let's say you have a doctor, you have a swelling. You make a decision for surgery to cut it out. Yet, within a day or two, you have an MRI that shows only fluid and the surgery is of no benefit. Do you simply go on the original diagnosis and straight to surgery with anaesthesia and the chance of surgical complications with no benefit? Or do you alter your decision.....?


    The press invariably take words out of context - it's what attracts readers. I refuse to be so gullible in the face of doubt.

    Exactly! I wouldn't like my words to be taken out of context.
     
  9. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    For myself, I did not changed my view on this affair, appart from being authenticated (I was in doubt at first).
    For the content in the interview, I still think that Marin is not having good manners. But I also don't think it is such a crucial point, specially when we put the interview in perspective.
    So Marin could have reacted much better, that's for sure, and her reaction shows her pitbull-like character, but it was a victory fair and square nevertheless, and I still enjoy seing her play.
     
  10. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Sorry, where's the better translation and. may I ask, how do you know it's better? What context, whose, s_mairs' or Marin's for which nobody knows what match she's talking about? Just look at their H2H, JPN Open June 2014 or one of the two matches played in 2012 - the three that LXR won ?

    Pardon me for saying this, we took renbo's wife's translation on faith after he cast doubt on the Chinese version on the bbs (not to say my English translation of it) and even questioned the authenticity of its source in Spanish, and now renbo is saying s_mair's translation is better. In what way ?

    The source is the Spanish audio clip, how did the Spanish press invariably take words out of context ? Hope you don't mind, these are the kind of probing questions the prosecutor in a court of law would ask, and he would play the original Spanish audio clip and pose the question to Marin,' Did you or did you not say this ?'

    Lastly, I repeat, would you or renbo have done what Marin did ? I don't think so.
     
  11. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

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    Justin, the context in which the sentence Marin is quoted for was said. The interview, the questions leading up to this. They were talking about the match, and how Marin felt during the match "at which point she felt she would win".

    It's got nothing to do with translation, but simply it's a matter of reading more than Marin's statement alone. And the first quote's and translations provided, did not convey the context. Somewhere in the links, I found the actual interview, and then I wasn't in doubt - it was not speculation - she was of course talking about her mindset during the match, and explaining why she acted the way she did (played 100% full out to win).

    I don't have the time to go further into the details here, and backtrace all the posts, etc. So I can't really convince you further.

    And would we have done what she did? I don't know. Do you mean if we would have played full out to win, or mention the thing in the interviews afterwards? As for the match - if you play for a medal in the Olympics, you play to win. If your opponent keeps playing, you give it your best. You cannot hold back, because you think your opponent might be injured - that's a decision for your opponent to make. If you're injured, you stop playing. If you play, you expect your opponent to give her best.

    Then, after the match, it's something else. you of course show good sportsmanship and behaviour towards your opponent.

    It's difficult about the "cheering" part. Because even though, at the end of the match you might win because of an injury, you still have reached your goal for a long time, are thrilled about that, and you celebrate not just the final few points that came because of the injury, but you also celebrate all your efforts gone into this over the past months. You succeeded. You would have liked to get the final points in a different manner, no question about it, but nevertheless, you managed to win and reach your goal. The first parts of the match was won fair and square. The other matches likewise. So you're happy.

    I think, personally, I'd have dampened my self a bit. Gone to my opponent, and talked to her, showing my respect. Then I'd had gone back to my own court, and cheered for the result and accomplishment.

    I mean, Ratchanok didn't make it to a medal. All that she failed to do, Marin succeeded in doing. And that had nothing to do with the injury at the end. So there is a sense of relief and a reason to rejoice once you are at the goal line.... It's a difficult balance I guess.

    As for the interview, I'd probably have kept it to myself. But I think it's a fair statement, to explain why she was playing full out on court, even though on TV it seemed that she had a certain win. She is not saying that she thinks after the match, the injury was faked.
     
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  12. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Err...where's the correct translation of the full audio clip then, assuming renbo's wife's contains "a couple of differences or imprecisions " ?

    What's inside Marin's mind and not said we don't know, it's what's actually said that count as in the said Spanish audio clip. Sorry, we are not interested in what you, FeatherBlaster , renbo and Cheung thought what the context might be, second-guessing her mindset, making your own assumptions, and so on and so forth.

    Well, Hope Solo did protest and explain why she ranted at the Swedes calling them " a bunch of cowards" but the US soccer federation would have none of it, never mind why or the context of her outburst, the fact that she committed it is proof enough. You can suggest there's attenuating circumstances, so what? If there is, the federation would've taken them into account. I'm sure you get the point.

    Your side note doesn't make the slightest sense to me. Any player who crosses over to the opponent's side is instantly red-carded and disqualified, for sure the badminton community will be abuzz with chastisement of her, even wondering if she's got her a screw loose.
     
  13. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    First, I did not question the authenticity of the interview in Spanish. This you made up. Second, when you showed a translation in Chinese, there was no reference coming with it, so there was, objectively, doubt about its validity. This has nothing to do with the rest.
    Now the "context" we talk about is not a difference between my wife or S_Mair's wife' translation, but about the tense of Marin's thought. If she thought during the match that LXR was delaying the match, then it is quite natural. What makes some think this is her allusion to her past experience.
    If Marin still thought after the match that it was a fake, then it is very ungracious from Marin.
    But this is very small mistake and not the big thing you are making out of it ; it is much less severe then say, LD throwing a match so CJ would have a better ranking for the previous OLY.
    Lastly, your question about would we or not behave in the same way, it is a foolish question. How do I know what it is to play an Olympic final? To pretend so is to ramble for nothing.
     
  14. s_mair

    s_mair Regular Member

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    I'm sure you know quite well that this was a general remark and not specifically related to the interview in question.

    The context of the interview and her words in question don't need any assumptions to be made. The interviewer asks her about what was going through her mind during the match and then she answered to that question. End of story. No guessing, no assumption needed if you ask me. And if "you" (in plural... whoever the others might be...) still have a different opinion on that, then so be it. If you still want to verbally hang her for what she did or said, then I have no intention of stopping you. You have made up your mind and I'm fine with that.

    Sorry. Don't get your point at all. Both are totally different situations and circumstances.

    What I wanted to say was: It's a shame that LXR got injured in that match, but Carolina is not to blame for it! It's human nature that we are subconciously looking for someone to blame if anything bad happens.

    I will leave it at that since I don't have the feeling that I can add any further points to this revolving discussion.
     
    #34 s_mair, Sep 2, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
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  15. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    It's obvious to me, you're just hedging the issue, adding nothing new and evading all my direct questions and points made.

    Now you're saying it's got nothing to do with the translation but that's exactly the crux of the matter. Who's reading more into what she actually said, providing the context, explaining her mindset, etc. What has it got to do with Marin playing 100% full out to win - who doesn't at the Olympics, their forms aside ?

    Ratchanok? What's she got to do with it ? Nothing.

    And you appeared to be fudging my question on whether you'd have done what Marin did at the post-match interview (what else) only to sort of admitting you'd probably have kept it to yourself and then, finally, to deny she's saying that she thought LXR's injury was faked. I rest my case.
     
  16. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    You might want to refresh your memory in the relevant tournament thread where your skepticism and tinge of cynicism was obvious.

    Why bothered to express what she thought during the match when she no longer thought so after it at the interview ? What purpose did it serve ? To confess her unsavoury thoughts during the match for which she later regretted it ? And she even went on about a supposed past incident that in a way justify her thinking so. It's an entirely different matter if she wrote this in her autobiography years later after her retirement in a tell-it-all manner to capture the readers' interests.

    And please stop muddling the issue by dragging in a straw man argument about Lin Dan's throwing a match to CJ. Perhaps you intended it as a red herring, still it's irrelevant and in no way serve to justify Marin's action. Kindly stick to the issue at hand regarding Marin's incriminating statement on LXR faking injury as a strategy.

    Finally, my question is neither foolish nor so difficult to imagine for anybody in Marin's shoes. You don't have to throw yourself under a cartwheel to understand what it's like to be run over by it.
     
  17. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    You thought it's a general remark but renbo in his post #21 wrote: "S_Mair's wife's translation would be better because my wife grew up in South America but is still not a native speaker. Though the Spanish spoken in Spain is in any case quite different then the ones in the Americas."

    My point, as I've said before, is Marin got off with more than what Hope Solo did with her rant.

    Fine, we can leave it at that.
     
  18. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    No, I think your imaging yourself in the OLY final is delusional.
    About LD and CJ, it is very to the point. Put thing in perspective. Marin's behaviour is not so bad, it is not like cheating. It is, I might add, much more to the point then some other sport's incident you keep bringing in.
    Third, when you spread the news about the interview, skepticism was very healthy and it has nothing to do with how we can judge Marin's behaviour.
    Fourth, for Marin to express what she thought during the match, just after the match, is very natural, as this is how she lived the event.
    I understand you are bitterly disappointed bu LXR's defeat, but she the only thing reasonable is to wait for LXR to restaure her condition and seek revenge, or support players that can do so instead. To whine like this serves no purpose.
     
  19. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Don't be presumptuous. You're the delusional one, all your posts in response to mine show clearly your line of thinking and your stance.

    You mean only cheating is against the Olympic spirit encompassing noble and universal values whilst everything less is not so bad. Is Hope Solo's rant worse ?

    Again, I won't fall for your red herring or straw man argument.

    Skepticism is good and natural but up to a point, not when the facts are clear, the evidence undeniable and your wife's translation appreciated and taken on faith, or even the so-called s_mair's translation is better (but nowhere to be seen).

    So what comes naturally to someone is good, the merits and demerits of the case don't matter ?

    My disappointment with LXR's defeat (and unfortunate injury) is purely a personal matter, it's the points and arguments I made that should be addressed for what they're worth (who cares a hoot about my disappointment). Don't divert the issue, sidestepping and ignoring what's really important by lightly dismissing it as whining. If that's how you're going on about it, I have much better things to do. If there's any disappointment, it's mine.

    In any case, I'm glad I have been consistent and have the courage of my convictions. Adios.
     
  20. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    You are consistent in your delusions - or one should call it stubbornness - certainly not a "conviction".
    When I see a new fact I take it into account, but you stick to your judgmental attitude and comments. Of course cheating is the worse. What Marin said in the post-match interview is benign, that you don't see that is hard to understand - only personal bias can explain it, as far as I can fathom.
    If I said that I doubt information without any reference, it does not mean that I remain skeptical after I have been able to check the data. Once I did that, I gave my interpretation of it.
    There is nothing dubious there and if you are unhappy with some of my arguments, you should state them and stick to them.
    If you think that Marin should be punished in some way because of what she said in an interview, I think you err and lost perspective on the whole matter.
     

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