Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Countering a fast singles player

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by eelvis, Oct 18, 2016.

  1. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Denmark
    Weren't you the guy who argued that it was no problem for a player of inadequate technical capacity, to play with tensions like the pros?

    And that you were playing 30lbs+ in order to get "better feedback" and get "beaten" by your training, and then to make progress through hard work?

    ---------------------

    In regards to this threads actual contents, what is meant by "a fast player"?

    I guess, people think of a player with fast movement around the court (footwork)?

    But a fast player could also refer to his shots/play-style, right?

    Or his technical skills (fast shot execution and defensive reflexes)?

    As Robert said, there's a lot of missing critical information. Technical skills on both sides. Tactical skills on both sides. Stamina. Etc.

    However, I'd like to point out a few things here:

    1) Making sure your lifts and clears will be high and long enough to move your opponent the extra yard is key. But don't play all shots the same - do some shifts in tempo during rallies, and hit a couple of lifts and clears flat. Often fast players are fast, because they also read you well, and fall into a good timing with your playstyle. Mess that up. But play the majority of your long shots "defensively". Score points on counter-attack during rallies, if that's possible. Slow and patient, then go for an opening. Problems here are: 1) If his stamina is also better than yours. 2) If his technique or ability to predict the plays are better than yours.

    2) Resist the temptation of playing faster. By playing faster, you're speeding up the game for both of you, since his returns will come faster as well, especially if you're playing attacking shots. And the result is a pace that's not to your advantage.

    3) Discover any patterns in his shots, depending on how you're playing him, Explore his S&W in different areas, then exploit. There are some tricks that can be used on a few points in each game, like smashing high on his body will typically force a block return - try that, and move directly to the net after hitting your smash, to go for the kill. Build up your deceptions in "layers", by showing the normal shot, then make the deception, then make the 2 x deception. When playing the important shots where you go for the point, you go all-in. Setup the opportunity for a smash, then go all out for the winner, etc. Do a jump smash a couple of times, trying to hit an outright winner hard on the sidelines. Then later in the same set, you can try the jump-flat-clear, straight over his head.

    My guess is like Robert's: You'll be needing to pull all your bells and whistles to win, and you have to play your top game (and get a bit lucky).

    :)

    This is why footwork and a compact technique is so important to learn... Nothing beats speed.
     
  2. pepe54

    pepe54 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    123
    @FeatherBlaster
    I think you might have been mistaken or confused me for somebody else. I don't recall arguing or advocating any specific discussions with respect to using high tensions but if you can show me an exact reference, I might be able to address your queries? Similarly, I don't quite understand your quotes of "get better feedback" and "get beaten by your training" ; they do not sound familiar to my own speech patterns; if though if your using google translate, this might be a mis-translation.

    My prerogative of using high tensions is strictly my own private preference. Through my own experiences, I do believe that it is more unforgiving in nature with regard to demanding perfect form, technique and power. While playing yesterday, a club mate wanted to give my voltric dg 10 a try so I warned him that it was strung at 34lbs .... where you are heading with these accusations is beyond me Featherblaster....


    Back on topic, since we're airing our opinions and philosophies here, I shall refute Featherblasters "nothing beats speed" idea by my own paradigm that pure offense and power are the ultimate frontier in badminton; other goals although necessary, are supplementary at best.

     
    #22 pepe54, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  3. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Denmark
    No no no, I didn't mistake you for anyone else :) And I think you know perfectly well what I refer to.

    It was not meant to be "accusations" or anything like that, I was actually curious to know if it was indeed you, who said those things 4 months back - got warned by a lot of people in here that you were going wrong about it - and then ended up with a 3-4 month long elbow injury...

    I think perhaps we should learn from your experience (and most of all, I hope that you personally learn from it, and go down in tension, so you don't ruin your joints completely, and end up not being able to play the sport you like so much.

    Sorry if was being too aggressive in my question if you were indeed the beginner playing those really high tensions - it was not my intention to annoy you.

    You're completely correct that it's your prerogative and personal decision what tension you play. But when you post in here, threads starting with "To dispel the myth about high tensions", you will end up getting some kind of response from the other forum users. I guess the reason for posting in here in the first place, is to share information, get feedback, and have a healthy debate.

    Wish you the best, and I hope your arm get well soon. Take my advice: Go down in tension and/or switch to a softer feeling string or a more flexible racket. Beginners should not play stiff rackets with 34lbs tension, especially not when they are over 30 years old :)

    I think it was the same point @Gollum @Ch1k0 and others tried to send across in that thread 4 months ago.
     
    #23 FeatherBlaster, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  4. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Denmark
    That's all good. The wonderful thing about this sport, is that it can be played by very different people, with all kinds of physical properties, and strategic preferences. Some are fast, others are powerful, yet others have the endurance to run for hours.

    What's very important to understand here, is that we're not talking about power vs speed. Those players you love to see, attack their way to the points in spectacular fashion, are able to do so because they move fast. If you haven't got the proper footwork, speed and movement technique, you won't be able to get in position to hit those hard and precise attacking shots. Upper body not turning right, when moving to the shot? You don't get the (pre) tension in your breast muscles to hit those monsters. Etc.

    Great footwork and speed is the foundation for both attacking and defensive playing styles.

    (Of course, I'm talking singles now).
     
  5. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Denmark
    Now, honestly, you got me started. I guess I can spend two more minutes replying to your request to jog your memory :)

    I'm sorry I used the wording of you "getting beaten up by your training".

    Perhaps you can better recall the discussion, where you argued for using high tensions, if I just put a few quotes here (and these are exact references - your own words):

    Then you got warned that your approach was perhaps not the right one, and you replied:

    And finally when warned about your approach being dangerous to your health, and that you should go for lower tensions, you replied:

    Now - be honest, so that others don't do the same mistake:

    You didn't listen to the advice given, instead you went from 30lbs to 34lbs, and got an elbow injury that have hurt you for 3 months now... Is that about right?

    -----

    I REALLY don't come to these forums to participate in arguments like this, I think it's a waste of time. I'm here offering 30 years of badminton experience, and I want to learn from peers and share knowledge with other people interested in our sport. I've been a player at a reasonably high level and I've been working as a coach for juniors (took all the education available at the Danish federation 25-30 years ago). I've now offered you my advice, and it's up to you if you want to follow it

    I will not post more on this subject.

    I know you may feel a bit offended now (I'm not a native English speaker, I may come across a bit harsh) - but please think about it for a while, and know that my intentions are good. :)
     
  6. pepe54

    pepe54 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2016
    Messages:
    119
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    123
    First and foremost, apologies to the OP and everyone else reading this along with FeatherBlaster's posts. It was not our intention of hijacking the thread or disgressing off topic but rather a necessary convention to reply to a direct query. Moderators, please feel free to move or delete our posts that are off topic here.


    @FeatherBlaster
    To clarify, I did mention that I was on a 20lbs ~ mid flex, spare racquet back then. I never got injured on my initial 30lbs starting racquet as a beginner but did mention that I did some basic conditioning on the sidelines. Timeline wise, I started on 30lbs which lasted for my first 3 months, was forced on a 20lbs spare for about 4months, then the elbow injury happened, and now im back with 30 and 34 lbs.

    To be precise, my elbow injury occurred on the day after I did the following activities on the previous day:
    -Did 3 sets of chin-ups, pull-ups and dips as finishers
    -A 3h session of badminton which focused on drilling backhand clears
    -Did another 3 sets of chin-ups, pull-ups immediately after

    The next day I noticed the elbow injury while putting on a T-Shirt and it regressed further beyond that point. I do find it a bit annoying when someone decides to selectively quote another to weave their own plot out of context but yeah, I hope that clarifies your initial queries.

    I do not see how relaying my own experience is an argument for recommending high tensions. I guess that as English is perhaps not your first language, it could have been misinterpreted by non native speakers unfamiliar with discussions. To clear any wild doubt of confusion you might still suffer from, I vividly recall mentioning on several occasions that higher tensions are less forgiving in that shots simply "fail to execute" when bad form, technique and a lack of power is involved; that should address your own wild notion of novices being able to play effectively while mimicking high tensions used by professionals. Regardless, I do appreciate your kind intentions and advice, along with Gollums and CK10 - its what makes bcentral such a fantastic community to be a part of!

    A more objective discussion / investigation of what exactly caused my elbow joint injury can be found at http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for...on-technique-aside.167259/page-4#post-2521931
    A simple preliminary list of contributing factors which led to the injury might be:
    -Conditoning Exercises: Wall Facing Handstand Pushups, Chinups, Pullups and Dips
    -The issue that I had taken off the factory wrap on my spare racquet at that time and not used foam/cushion grip
    -The fact that I did my conditioning exercises immediately before and after badminton sessions
    Anecdotally, my elbow injury is such that I am still unable to do a basic pushup, let alone a wall facing handstand pushup or the rest, but I am able to play fine using my 34 lbs racquet at present. That being said, elbow tendinitis is very common among badminton players as are knee and ankle joint injuries. Should I be blaming my preferences for high tension for my knee and ankle joint issues too? Clearly, training intensity relates to joint injuries here I feel.
     
    #26 pepe54, Jan 10, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
  7. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,599
    Likes Received:
    216
    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    England
    This is a tricky one... I am of the opinion nothing beats consistency. And for consistency you need speed and accuracy. The pure offense and power route is certainly spectacular... in the one match where you manage to pull off every shot. But the risk/reward just isn't there. Compare this to the ultimate pressure you put on other people by never making a mistake and always retrieving everything... I think that player is far more formidable. But I would have to agree - if someone attacks every shot and it goes in with power landing close to the lines, that is almost unplayable. But can you do it every day for a 10 year career? Or will you make more mistakes more often than not?
     
  8. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,492
    Likes Received:
    105
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    With regard to the string tension issue: respectfully, I would like to express my agreement with @FeatherBlaster's comments. I recognise that every player is different, and adult players are free to make their own decisions. But in general, these are my views on the topic:
    • Using high tensions as a training aid is a bad idea and carries a high risk of injury.
    • Beginners should not use high tensions, no matter how fit they are.
    • Players who are not in good physical condition should not use high tensions.
    • Players with existing (or recently recovered) racket arm injuries should not use high tensions.
    • Most juniors should not use high tension.
    • Using high tensions does not mean you are a good player.
    • Bragging about your high string tension is foolish and irresponsible.
    String tension is a personal choice. However, by association with professional players, high tension is appealing to many amateurs (they want to "feel pro"). For most players, this is a trap that leads to worse play and injury.

    When experimenting with string tension, it is safer to make small, incremental increases (typically 1 lb). I suggest stopping as soon as you lose power in your smash. It is important to be honest with yourself.
     
    Zoidius likes this.
  9. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2015
    Messages:
    321
    Likes Received:
    86
    Location:
    Manchester
    Reading with interest...this thread has certainly evolved since I lasted posted!

    I'm with FB and Gollum on this one, Pepe. And the simple reason is because of experience.

    You are right that high tensions are less forgiving. You are right that any imperfections/mishits show up.

    The problem is how you then go about correcting these mishits.

    Most people see a bad shot (short clear for example) and TRY HARDER. That's especially lethal for your wrist/elbow/shoulder with high tensions, as trying harder exacerbates the problem.

    Eventually you adopt a brute force style swing, tensing your muscles to numb the vibration and to smash through for power and get the length you need for your strokes. Eventually you lose the finesse and touch that you might have had before.

    This is especially true for those who play games more than training/drills. In a game situation, especially if you're losing, you are much less likely to calm yourself down and become more relaxed, and instead get more tense and try harder.

    The pros at 30+lbs deliver loads of power whilst keeping a relaxed grip, and flick the racquet nimbly. They have excellent technique and do not need major changes to their stroke. They know what a bad shot feels like, and they know they don't need to modify their swing to correct for it (or if they do, they'll know exactly why).

    A beginner doesn't have this knowledge to hand, so they'll try and correct it by changing stuff until something works to patch the weakness. Unfortunately, the easy way is often the wrong way.

    I write this not as a seasoned pro/coach, but as someone who's tried the high tensions 28-30lbs and after half a year, now needs to relearn what I've forgotten. When you see people casually lift a shuttle high and deep from a late forehand where it needs you to grit your teeth and swing as hard as possible...That's when you wonder what changed.
     
    Gollum and pepe54 like this.
  10. FeatherBlaster

    FeatherBlaster Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2014
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    212
    Location:
    Denmark
    ...and as a beginner, you don't need 34 lbs of tension to feel if you are hitting the shuttle in the sweet spot or not. Even at 24 lbs it's very easy to feel if the swing you apply is "clean" or not, or if you hit the shuttle at the top of your racket or not. You are not in doubt when you hit it right.

    I will even go so far and say, that it may even be easier, since your are not pushing your boundaries adding all the power you got. With the softer string job, you can grip more lightly, and apply your technique more relaxed. There's a better chance you are perceiving things correct in this mode, than pushing yourself on the edge of injury. When you "got it", you can progress, but in terms of power level and string tensions.

    Remember, 12 year olds can clear the full court, without extended strength training! I'd say, your muscles/power is of more help in the smaller faster shots, where you really need to accelerate the racket fast.

    There's no doubt better fitness and stronger rotation-muscles will help you in many areas of the game :)

    I'm advocating string jobs that fit your level of play. Maybe go 1-2 lbs above if you like the hard feeling and feedback. Don't go 8 lbs above...
     
  11. shooting stroke

    shooting stroke Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    885
    Likes Received:
    55
    Occupation:
    Professional / Badminton Coach
    Location:
    Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, Malaysia
    Hi there eelvis

    How's things going on now?. Playing with an opponent that moves fast on court and smashed hard can be a pain in the @$$. However playing with these type of player also can make you improve a lot as you are pushed to play even better every time playing with him.

    As your recent post mentioned that you've already improved in closing the gap after playing with him and therefore I would assume all the points given here has managed to give you some guidance.

    Just adding some point of view from the mentality aspect in which despite having prepared well from the point of physical fitness and strength and..... techniques and .......agility, don't ever underestimate that you also need a very strong mental preparation. A strong mentality preparation is vital as you can have a constant and continues clear of thought and idea about how you want to play your shots confidently while implementing whatever strategy that you have already decided. This is important in building up your inner believe thus that positive character attitude on court while playing. When you see a player that has so much of confidence then you will know that there will be minimal errors that can go wrong while he's playing and for every shot he plays it is very likely that it will end up as a winning shot. Ever in this state before?

    Such important Is this that even if you think you are a better player and has all the good shots there are in the book but if your opponent managed to replied all of your shots and with interest as well....... then if your thoughts and idea are lost to what to do under such pressure then eventually you will go down despite how good you are.

    An excellent player has to importantly grasp and master all the core component together as it will be incomplete without the other....... Mental, physical, tecnique and footwork.

    SS
     
  12. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    14,197
    Likes Received:
    489
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    "But it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can get hit and keep moving forward; how much you can take and keep moving forward." - Rocky Balboa
     
    DarkHiatus likes this.

Share This Page