Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Did Lin Dan give up the final?

Discussion in 'German Open / All England / Swiss Open 2005' started by Mag, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. Mag

    Mag Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    3,342
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Graphic Designer
    Location:
    Stockholm, Sweden
    I'm perhaps opening a can of worms here, but I am so puzzled by the outcome of the All England MS final.

    I think that most of us were banking on a win for Lin Dan, but Chen Hong decided to surprise us all. I have never considered Lin Dan "unbeatable", and although he has not been very successful during recent years, Chen Hong is a formidable player.

    So why do I have a bad taste in my mouth? Perhaps because of the circumstances? Perhaps because I happen to believe that NOBODY is good enough to beat a trying Lin Dan by 15-2. Think of it: is it likely that ANY of the players currently in the top ten (I am sure that could be extended) would lose a game 2-15?

    As I see it, Lin Dan must have given up the fight. For the sake of reasoning, let's assume that was the case. Then several questions follow: was he injured? If not, did LYB order him to throw the match (it wouldn't be the first time he ordered such a thing)? If so, why? Chen Hong is currently #5 in the world ranking, so there is no obvious need for him to gain more points for the WC. And besides, he was already in the final, and I think the difference in collected ranking points is just over 1000 between the AE winner and the runner-up. This hardly justifies a "fixed" match, even looking at it with LYB's eyes.

    I would really appreciate to hear more from those members that actually saw the match. So far, all the reports I have read directly or indirectly suggest something strange was going on. Although he would never suggest foul play, even IBF's Raphael Sachetat describes Lin Dan as "another man" after the 1st game. To me, Lin Dan seem like the kind of guy that, if injured, he'd rather retire the match than lose like this. Some reporters have suggested "tiredness" or "lack of motivation", but then how does that happen during a 90-second break after having won the 1st game convincingly by 15-8? And it seems that Chen Hong didn't really change his game, he just kept on doing what he did in the 1st game...

    Does this smell as bad as I think it does, or am I just being paranoid?

    :eek:
     
    #1 Mag, Mar 14, 2005
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2005
  2. andymcg

    andymcg Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    310
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Software Engineer
    Location:
    Newcastle Upon Tyne, UK
    I totally agree Mag if you read my report. Chen Hong had nothing to trouble Lin Dan in the first set, and yet manages to turn it around and win 15-5 15-2. Something not right there.

    Are they trying to get Chen Hong up to number 2 in the rankings or something? Is Lin Dan almost assured of being #1 come the time for the worlds draw? I'm not sure, but something was definitely not right.
     
  3. Quasimodo

    Quasimodo Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2004
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Bell tower
    Not having seen the match and just jumping to conclusions based on the scorelines, I'd venture to guess either Lin was injured, team orders or a combination of the two. As awful as it sounds, I hope it was the first case because team orders, especially strictly for manipulating points purposes, are going to destroy the sport. It would be similar to having Barrichello slowed down almost to a complete halt metres from the finish line so that Schumacher could take over the win and score 2 extra points. Even the most diehard fans would turn off and go seek another competition to watch. And that will be disastrous to the future of the sport.

    If IBF doesn't already have a policy against team orders, IMHO, they should. They should also have a policy on investigating allegations of team orders with a body specifically formed for that purpose that have full sanctioning powers.

    Team orders aren't going to go away, but much can be done to keep them to an absolute minimum.
     
  4. Dzgdz

    Dzgdz Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2003
    Messages:
    289
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    finance
    Location:
    Warsaw, Poland
    Hi there,

    I was also in Birmingham of Fri, Sat and Sun and that was amazing experience for me, especially since that it was my first tournament of that size seen live. I will try to write something more later on, but since the English is not my first language, it might be difficult to share all my thoughts.

    About the Lin Dan vs Cheng Hong match. From what Lin Dan showed in QF and SF (especially in the third set against Wong CH – he outplayed him totally), the only reason that could prevent LD from taking the title again, was – in my opinion - either injury or fixed match.

    Arguments for injury – only two and weak ones:
    1. I saw Lin Dan holding his back in one or two occasions during THAT match, but there was no situation on court when he could be injured
    2. Lin Dan had his legs plastered and during the ceremony just after the match (Lin Dan acted ridiculous when he enter the podium when speaker announced that the trophy will be given by Japanese president of Yonex) he was doing something with this plasters on his legs (he might have just removing it) – but it did not look like any injury

    Therefore I must admit that after seeing LD in his three consecutive matches I don’t think he might have been injured during the final.

    Arguments for fixed match (I don’t know the reasons, I just can tell you my observations):
    1. LD was superb during his previous matches. The scenario was usually the same. In the first set he was up. In the second was down struggling with motivation, and in the third – he simply outplayed his opponent – especially Wong CH in the SF. It was the same in the final during first two games, but finally, it was Chen Hong who outplayed LD in the final game.
    2. The first set was amazing. Both players played superbly with a clear advantage on the Lin Dan’s side. He was producing majority of winners and it looked quite clear that LD was dictating the pace. After the first game finished a different LD went on court. His clears were not long enough, his drop-shots were not so sharp and smashes were out just to often.
    3. Lin Dan also behaved strangely. He was not concentrated and after the match finished he looked like his mind was far away form the NIA.
    4. The Lin Dan’s body language during his previous matches and during the first set against Chen Hong showed his self-confidence, fighting spirit and will for win. After the first game of the final, he looked resigned, his lighting moves appeared to be slower and it was simply a different LD.

    Taking into consideration all what I saw during these three days, I must say that due to some strange reasons the MS final was of the low standard. It is difficult to prove that the match was fixed, but my observations make me think that.

    regards
    dzgdz
     
  5. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    16,250
    Likes Received:
    35
    Occupation:
    wannabe badminton phototaker
    Location:
    Outside the box
    Went to look at the world rankings. Chen Hong is there in 5th place. 6th and 7th placings are quite far behind. If it is team orders, the reason could be seedings.
     
  6. 2love2live

    2love2live Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2004
    Messages:
    71
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Shanghai
    ...... feel so sad ......
     
  7. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2002
    Messages:
    22,050
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Surfing, reading fan mails:D, Dilithium Crystal hu
    Location:
    Basement Boiler Room
    I had similar suspicion about this match result too but since i didn't follow nor watch it i didnt want to make allegations. To have LD blowout like that is very puzzling. Even the score point spread of each set is puzzling to me.
     
  8. dlp

    dlp Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    963
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Accountant / Coach
    Location:
    uk
    Yes I think the result was set with the world champs seeding in mind. Clearly the higher the 2nd and 3rd chinese are the more "control" the team will have in deciding the outcome, we all remember Birmingham 2003 and the chinese tactics.

    What about the WS? I havent seen the match but XIe didnt make the team for Athens yet beat Zhang in two??

    This is why I tell people not to go on finals day, 3 all chinese finals is not good for the spectator, well the educated spectator anyway.....
     
  9. peace

    peace Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    I also didn't see the MS Final directly, but from what I read here and also what I thought...seems that this match has already fixed before. It is very very strange that LIN DAN gave up easily especially in the final set 15-2, it was an amazing score. Almost noone can do that against him. Especially in 11 minutes the score in the 3rd set was already 14-1 for Chen Hong..impossible for a player like LIN DAN.....

    I still remember the Chinese tactics before the olympic games 1992. At that time Liu Jun (3rd MS single was not in the qualification list of olympics 1992, out of 8th ranks before AE 1992), but since China wanted to have 3 players at the Olympics 1992, then the arrangement happened whereas Wu Wenkai gave up to Liu Jun in SF and after all Zhao Jianhua, who was the best player at that time, even gave up in final to Liu Jun....

    This is not a sport anymore if it was true that LIN DAN's fail is arranged already...I hope this is not true, but reasoning that LIN DAN is injured is more unreasonable for me.
    Hmmm.....maybe this is a tactic for world championship 2005 seeding or...?
    STRANGE :eek:

    O my Dear LIN DAN, hope you are not disappointed of this...hope that you can make a great job again after this, take as much title as you can :) ....and be a golden couple again with Xie Xingfang.
    For LYB, if so, please let your players play like the way they play.....
    ZHONG GUO JIA YOU !!! LIN DAN GO GO GO !!!:)
     
  10. deca2000

    deca2000 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    if i were arranging something, i'd make it as real as possible, especially only for a single match. even if lin does not want to cooperate, chen would still have a lot of chances to make the score seemingly reasonable. WCH lost to lin in the third set at 2(or 3):15. it is not unusual to have a very unbalanced game even if two players have similar ranking and try hard.
     
  11. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    10,243
    Likes Received:
    13
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    New York, US
    but it might be a good thing from the coach and team point of view... :rolleyes:
     
  12. Ken

    Ken Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    The AE MS-Final - an report/article from Chinese website

    Interesting report and interviews with the AE MS-Finalists (Chen Hong & Lin Dan) about "The Match"!

    I'm afraid that it's in Chinese but perhaps someone here with sound English could kindly translate it for you guys.

    http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/p/2005-03-14/09431448247.shtml

    Regards,
    ken
     
  13. Ken

    Ken Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
  14. Ken

    Ken Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    Sorry! Another (last) one from Lin Dan.


    Now you have quite a few info from Chinese press (sports.sina.com) and 'Says' from the finalists. So I leave it to you guys to judge "The Match" - think again :crying:

    Ken
     
  15. Ken

    Ken Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2002
    Messages:
    61
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    Sorry, here you go!

    http://sports.sina.com.cn/o/2005-03-14/09491448290.shtml


     
  16. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    4,000
    Likes Received:
    11
    Occupation:
    computer
    Location:
    Sweden
    simply..

    Or, of course, it could be as simple as LD had a slight injury, and the Chineese team felt it wasn't worth the risk of making it worse by pushing it to the max in an all-chineese final with the Japan Open, and World Championships coming up shortly :)

    /Twobeer
     
  17. clemclem

    clemclem New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2003
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    I haven't seen the match but based on what I have read in the forum and the report Ken posted, I couldn't find any strong evidence to support the match being fixed.

    My English isn't good so I would just highlight some keypoints in the report
    1. Chen Hong also thought it's not like Lin Dan to give up so early in the 3rd set.
    2. Lin Dan said he felt tired after playing German Open and All England and he made a lot of errors (i.e. cross court smash from the back).
    3. Li Yong Bo said Chen Hong performed really well. He was consistent and made very few mistakes. On the other hand, Lin Dan cannot follow Chen Hong pace from the second game onwards. Basically, Chen Hong was in total control.

    Some personal thoughts:
    1. If Li Yong Bo want Chen Hong to win, then the Bao vs Chen match could have been fixed as well. What's the point of exteding the game to 3 sets 74mins (15-13, 12-15, 4-15)?
    2. Chen Hong is in good form. He beat Lee Chong Wei in 2 sets whereas Lin Dan struggled a bit in previous games against Wong Choong Han and Lee Hyun Il.
     
  18. Ben Beckman

    Ben Beckman Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Badminton Coach
    Location:
    Surrey
    I was at Birmingham during the match and I felt that Chen Hong just out played lin dan. lin dan was picking everything of chens in the first set but chen changed his game slightly and extended the rallies with a lot of punch clears, dictating the pace and was just a class above lin dan. lin dan isn't ubeatable and I think you should give chen some respect for a classy performance.


    Plus why try to get chen hong up the rankings when gade and jonassen are above him by about 3000 points.

    Also Bao Chunlai is ranked above chen hong and has a narrower margin between himself and jonassen so why not fix bao verses chen so that bao can get the points.

    All in all, I saw the match and thought that chen hong was definately the best man on court, he said he wanted to "prove his worth" to the coaches and he did.
     
  19. Axel_21

    Axel_21 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2005
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    IBA member
    Location:
    Ireland
    I was there for the whole week, and Lin Dan did not impress me as much as I thought he would with his play, he seemed to lack concentration in the 2nd set of all his matches, if you look at his 2nd set scores (4, lost, 11, lost, lost and lost).

    Chen Hong played excellent the whole week, he really deserved all his wins. He was definately the inform player of the tournament, Lee Hyun Il was also good.

    I really hope there is not a chinese conspiracy, even though I used to believe that there was, along the lines off, whoever wins the first set, wins the match. This was axed as soon as I saw all the Chinese 3 setters :eek:
     
  20. MarkinJapan

    MarkinJapan Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    kouchou sensei!
    Location:
    Victoria
    Easy, because bao didn't make the final.
    Sad if there is a fix. :(
     

Share This Page