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[Doubles] Getting in the attacking position and stay

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by ucantseeme, Mar 18, 2013.

  1. ucantseeme

    ucantseeme Regular Member

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    no way, she thinks that she do it the right way and I'm wrong because she is so experienced. And the sadest thing is that a few players at my club believe her rubbish and do it the same. Especially younger and beginner follow her, which is very sad. I will get around her.
     
  2. betazone

    betazone Regular Member

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    Hi, you have mis-interpreted my comment...what I am saying is I take a half-step forward and through my peripheral vision i try to track what shot my partner is taking....if my partner plays a drop I will rush to the net to pressure....THAT MEANS when the birdie is flying past me , across the net to opponent side...during this period, I must be taking another step to the net so that when the opponent "replies", I am already at the net pressurising......hope I make myself clear.

    yes this is very demanding, but lots of ppl are not doing it. For the pros, it is different because nearly 100% of the times any high shots will be met with a smash or drop, but for us amateurs, sometimes we dun hv enough power/time to do it, hence I compensate by taking half-step.

    Good luck and keep smashing !

     
  3. Orangie

    Orangie Regular Member

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    Maybe you could try cross court drop, smash and drives. Looks like she is on the beginner level of play.
     
  4. icey_drone

    icey_drone Regular Member

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    Dropping is a defensive shot? Since when?!

    When you drop or smash or even an offensive clear, stay at the back and partner covers the front


    Actually when you partner sees a high shot going to you, she should take a small half step and prepare to move forward incase. In my game, in most situations I will already move forward since my partners are normally offensive
     
  5. heyhey

    heyhey Regular Member

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    The way I interpret is, she is not wrong nor right either. It depend on how you look at the situations. If you think you are the better ones, just smash and rush forward to take on the drop or whatsoever shot that came directly back...It just take you two to three step or so (make sure you prepare for it). In a way, you make up for her short sighted/stubborn approach. Show her that there is no shot that would be troublesome for you, you can handle any kind of difficult shots~

    At the end of the day, you just improve your reaction, speed, technique and court awareness.
     
    #25 heyhey, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  6. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    This is an amusing thread :) Unfortunately I haven't been able to read all of it, so apologies if what I say is not relevant or already been said.

    Can I just say, as a means of throwing spanners into the works and whatnot, that when the shuttle is lifted to me, my partner can actually choose what they are going to cover.

    If my partner intends to cover everything straight, then they will move in front of me before I have hit the shuttle. Note: moving to the "T" is stupid - this is too far forwards. They should be at least a few feet behind the line (if not further back). They should be roughly on the same side as me, and should have one foot on the centre line (roughly speaking). If the opponent plays a cross block (to the net), my partner will have to cover that. If my opponent plays a cross drive, I will have to cover that, because my partner is covering straight, and can't possibly reach a good cross drive. If I can't get to that cross drive, it is my fault for playing a shot such that I can't cover the court afterwards.

    If my partner intends to cover everything cross court, then they will stand in the mid court on the other side to me. This sounds like the situation the original poster was in (partner not standing at the front, and on the "wrong" side). In this situation, I will know, before I hit my shot, that ANY cross court shot is going to be covered by my partner. I know that this is a really good opportunity to be very aggressive, so I will smash hard and come forwards into the mid court (which sounds like the advice given to the original poster?). I will be looking for anything that comes into my half, but expecting driven or blocked defence which I want to attack. I know my partner will handle anything cross court, so it gives our opponents no chance to counter attack. The only option they have is lifted defence, which may be effective since I am coming forwards to attack. However, I am not too worried about this - I can cover my half easily enough, even if having to retrieve a lift after rushing forwards.

    The moral of this story is that I am more than happy to cover everything straight myself, or rotate if thats what my partner wants (hit from the back and comes forwards - my partner will cover everything cross court and the straight lift where I was just hitting from). I am happy for my partner to choose what they will cover, and indicate this to me by where they stand. If I do a drop shot, they really should cover the net themselves (even if stood in the "wrong" place before hand) because there is plenty of time for them to get into a better position to threaten the net.

    Note: always smashing or dropping is predictable, but it may also be effective! If your smashes and drops are not winning you points though, mix in some punch clears (especially in womens doubles) - sometimes you need to move your opponent as well as just attack them!

    Good luck to you all! I look forward to anyone who has comments about what I have said.
     
  7. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Matt,

    You have some very good points, as usual. :)
    I would also like to add a few things.

    1. Level of play
    Depending on the level of play (beginner/advanced, social, semi competitive, competitive without appearing to be competitive ;) , and outright tournament competitive), the attacking position of the pair will vary greatly. And not everyone will know where to stand or go to at all times, given that the game is very fluid at all times and split second decisions and placement depend very much on experience. Heck, even pro players get caught out of position sometimes. :p

    2. Partner chemistry
    Sometimes, especially so in social pick-up badminton in group play, there is poor chemistry between the 2 players for various reasons. Could be incompatibility of styles, levels, personalities, etc. Could even be old grudges between the two from past pairings. I'm a pretty easy going guy, so I get along with anyone whether I win or lose, but I've seen my share of some pretty nasty arguments between partners while on court.

    3. Most important is to keep things in perspective and if you're stuck with someone who's stubborn or doesn't understand shot placement and pair positioning, then just do your low risk shots and just concentrate on your own shots and the game will be over before you know it. Then next time you get on the courts, just make sure you're the 2nd or 3rd person (not 1st or 4th!) to get on so that you can choose who you partner (or do not partner) with. ;)
     
  8. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Visor,

    You are spot on :) obviously!

    I am also a fairly easy going partner. I enjoy it when my partner plays their own style, and I will fit my game in around them. However, nothing beats playing with someone who is on the same wavelength as you!

    Good luck to everyone!
     
  9. Line & Length

    Line & Length Regular Member

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    Must admit, I am somewhat skeptical about 'partner choosing to cover the x-court'. Whilst it may be possible to attack and cover the standard responses effectively, I don't see what you are gaining relative to the standard channel/straight attack.

    By smashing straight & rushing forward, you and your partner are covering driven responses well. However, the (straight) net player should be able to cover driven responses off a well-placed (i.e. steep) smash anyway.

    Whilst you may well be able to get to a straight block, I don't believe that you can take it as early as the net player would.

    Similarly, your coverage of the back corner will be compromised to some extent by your coverage of the front corner. Therefore, any subsequent smashes will be harder than if you had a conventional attack.

    Attacking x-court is already risky. Your opposition will intercept closer to the net and higher than off a straight attack. Even if your partner is in position, they may already be on the back foot in the subsequent driving rally.

    Finally, whilst excellent stamina and footwork may make this possible, aren't you expending more energy attacking this way?

    I accept that there may be specific circumstances/styles where this approach is better. However, I would be surprised if this works for more than a small minority of cases.
     
  10. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Line and Length, excellent post! I would like to talk about your comments!

    Your first point is excellent - you are not gaining anything really. You are just covering different things with different priorities. If my partner stands ready for all straight responses, I (at the back) would have to retrieve a good cross court driven defensive shot. My partner may be able to cut some of them out, but I will have to cover some of them. My partner will be well placed to deal with standard straight replies to my attack. If my opponent seems to favour cross court defence (either driven or blocked or lifted) then having my partner stand cross court will allow them to hit winners against the cross court block and drive, and rotate to the back for a cross court lifted defence. This is preferable to me being relative vulnerable to a cross court drive (which I will have to take quite low). Obviously, the straight net becomes much more vulnerable.

    I agree! However, I would say not all smashes can be very steep. I am always looking to pounce on half chances (lower lifts) as well as the high ones. I don't smash recklessly, but I can't always be in the ideal position. If I were in the ideal position (which could happen assuming I get a lot better and don't play against better people) then my attack would always be more effective. Unfortunately, I am not that good :( Sometimes I do get put under pressure against skilled opponents.

    Agreed. The point is more we are sacrificing the coverage of SOME of the court (particularly straight net and straight lift), in exchange for considerably better coverage of some other areas (particularly cross court drive and lift). If my opponents show preferences or skill in some areas and not others, or we can catch them off guard at the end of a long rally, we may be able to limit their options. My partner may anticipate a certain shot, and hence readjust to cover that shot specifically. I must be ready to cover the remainder of the court if this happens. I trust my partner - he reads the game well. But sometimes I will have to cover a straight shot having just smashes from the rear court.

    I agree completely! I am not describing a situation in which I attack cross court. I would not advise this to anyone. I will (normally) avoid this play - very risky as you said. I am attacking straight (or the center) and my partner is standing to cover any cross court defensive shots they may hit (cross court meaning that their shot goes to the opposite side I smashes from).

    Yes I am! But I am doing this because my partner has a feeling that the next shot is coming cross court and he is looking for the instant win. If it does go straight, it will be tougher on me. My partner will also likely stop standing cross court in future rallies, as we are being outplayed by them playing straight. However, if it does go cross court, then we are at a significant advantage to the normal formation because of how early my partner can take it!

    You are spot on! I am not advocating this as a normal means of playing doubles. Definitely not. However, I am explaining why a partner might choose to stand in a different place, based on the skills of our opponent and the way in which he is reading the game. Most of the time, my partner will adopt the regular straight positioning, but sometimes they choose to cover cross. When this happens, I know why it has happened, and I also know what I have to do to cover the remainder of the court.

    I hope this makes sense! I absolutely agree with everything you have said, but I still think that it is perfectly normal for a partner to choose to sometimes cover the cross court shots and leave the straight ones to me.

    I don't know about you, but when I play matches, it frequently occurs that, after a few rallies of having their defenses destroyed by my partner and I using a channel attack, they start searching for ways of stopping us from using this focused attack. One of their options is a cross court block, drive or lift. When they do this on a regular basis, my partner and I will adjust our tactics accordingly to try and prevent our opponents from escaping! Sometimes standing straight, sometimes cross. We find it really effective, confusing opponents, and allows us to be a bit more flexible in our attack.

    Look forward to your thoughts!
     
  11. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    It makes sense you're taking an anticipatory tactical decision here. There might be other cases (e.g. in XD) when you partner (a girl/woman) may take up a cross-court position from her partner in order to apply pressure to the girl/woman on the other team.

    However, I believe this thinking, or discussion, was absent in OP's case. It sounded like OP's partner habitually does her things without any regard of what tactical situation might be. And that lies the objection(s).
     
  12. gundamzaku

    gundamzaku Regular Member

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    when i was training for doubles, from the defensive side by side position, as soon as your partner sees that your opponent is lifting to your side, she should have rushed to cover your net area, if you continue to smash or drop, she should stay in front of you to cover the net. but if you clear back to your opponent, then your partner should return to her original side side position. at least that's the basic rotation that i was taught. however if you get tired and want to rotate yourself out of the rear court, then that's a different story.
     
  13. StefanDO

    StefanDO Regular Member

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    It's a pity that this girl isn't open to logical arguments AND that she's spreading the wrong tactics. As far as her view of drop shots as defensive shots is concerned: Tell her that any shot that forces opponents to lift is an offensive shot (so this includes good smashes AND good drops).

    With respect to some posts above, interestingly, both views cover opposing extremes:
    1) The shuttle gets lifted or cleared to you, and your partner covers the net area by standing somewhat close but behind the T.
    2) The shuttle gets lifted or cleared to you, and your partner covers the half of the court sideways from you (more or less as in defense).

    The ideal - as far as I understand it from one of LJB's double tactics videos - is between both extremes: The partner should definitely cover the net area. BUT: He/she should not necessarily stand exactly in the middle of the court. Basic attacking formation suggests that he/she should stand slightly more to the side of the attacking partner (expecting the attacking partner to hit a straight smash or drop, as crosscourt shots should be avoided in doubles, except if opponents are out of position... the straight smash or drop should usually lead to straight weak replies from the opponent, allowing a net kill), at least if the attack is not too weak. Advanced attacking formation suggests that he/she should stand slightly more to the other side of the court (accounting for skillful defense from the opponents, i.e. cross net shots or drives to the other corner, which gives your partner better chances to keep the attack - because if you smash and have to run to the other corner of the court to return a cross drive, usually you get there so late that your return is most likely a defensive shot). IMPORTANTLY, the partner still has to cover opponent's straight block, which is of course more difficult then. Therefore, this is regarded as an advanced attacking formation, and it needs both players to be aware of that.
     
  14. mindfields

    mindfields Regular Member

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    Then she has no respect for you as a partner.
    If she is "more experienced" then she should be able to explain the logic behind her tactics and also be able to evaluate alternaltives when challenged.

    Do you not have access to a qualified coach who can explain from a position of authority?
    There's plenty of us here on this board but we're anonymous over the internet so given her attitude i doubt she'd accept the consensous.

    Which brings me back to my second point in my original post. Find another partner.
     
  15. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    That's not 'advanced attacking formation' - it's ceding the straight net area - the easiest return for your opponent, and it is saying "I don't trust my partner's attack". If it truly is advanced, why don't you see it in GP/SS matches?
     
  16. StefanDO

    StefanDO Regular Member

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    As I emphasized, the attacker's partner still has to cover the straight net returns, which is not so easy as I must admit - that's why I'd say it's suitable rather for advanced players.

    Sorry I forgot to mention that this 'advanced attacking formation' applies to situations in which the attacker at the rear court is already under pressure, i.e. if he has smashed and the opponent returned it to the other rear corner. Before this scenario, the attacker's partner should rather stand a bit more on the side of the attacker.

    You can see it in this video:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhmrFwdLA8w
     
  17. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but following on from Matt's point about the front player covering cross-court:

    Think about the situation where the lift is 1/2 or 3/4 court. You are now in a great position for smashing, but where does your partner go?

    Often it will be best for your partner to adopt a cross-court position, clearing a path and signalling to you that you are free to follow the smash forwards to the net. In this case, you are covering all the straight shots, and he is covering all the cross-court shots. This is one example of doubles "rotation".

    If your partner stays in the "standard" channel attack position here, then you can end up occupying almost the same part of the court. Sometimes your partner will be too close, and you will worry about hitting him!

    Note also that it is very difficult to smash from (one side of) the midcourt and cover any cross-court defence -- especially a cross-court lift or drive.

    This is just one example, of course. As Matt has already pointed out, there are other situations where this position could be effective too.
     

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