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"Faster" swing = more power? opinions please

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Boaster, Feb 24, 2010.

  1. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    In this particular case, with all things being equal (racket, string, tension) then a faster swing will produce a harder/faster smash.
     
  2. DanhNguyen5.3

    DanhNguyen5.3 Regular Member

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    lool this is what I was wondering when I was wondering to buy Bs09 or not lol, cuz I dont really put TOO much effort in my smash to conserve energy when I know the smash wont finish it, the headheavy and the mid felxy shaft alot my full arm smash a great deal of power
     
  3. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    relax, i didnt say ur wrong. I was only saying i wasn't wrong either.
    In simple collision system,conservation momentum equation is easy to use but a shuttlecock is not a simple object nor interaction with the strings is a simple system. U have to account for all its vectors and plus its angular spin, lots of equations. Sometime, using conservation of energy approach is easier and MORE ACCURATE in a real system.

    in badminton shuttlecock dynamic, conservation of momentum do not account for sound energy, string frictional heat energy, energy loss from bending shaft, air drag energy loss, etc

    lastly, i said conservation of energy, i didn't say conservation of only kinetic energy.:rolleyes:
     
    #23 cooler, Feb 24, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2010
  4. buchzdoa

    buchzdoa Regular Member

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    let's not forget about the moment arms!
     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i deal with real world, not billard balls. I'm not good at pool. :rolleyes:
     
  6. elvinteh

    elvinteh Regular Member

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    Badminton is different than tennis, tennis is use swing as i know, but badminton, what i learn is using strike.
    In badminton swing will waste energy and the contact point between the shuttle and racket is very important
     
  7. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    True... what happens before and after is not as important as at moment of impact.

    Which do you find is more important in your experience for power (and your dad's too!): lighter faster racket with faster speed on impact, or heavier racket with more momentum on impact?
     
  8. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    sure. if we have 2 moving racket of the same mass, one is faster, then the faster one will produce a harder smash.

    however, what is not kept constant is the strength of the player, in order to produce a faster swing, the strength of the player must be increased, which contradicts the "all things being equal" condition.

    the real question is then, if we keep the player's strength constant as well, then what is the maxima point for harder smash?

    i think the answer is somewhere between very light and very heavy. the player will have to experiment to find out.
     
  9. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    thx for pointing this out. I didn't want to push hard to counter debate the weakness of using conservation of momentum which druss is so fond of. In the real world shuttle making contact with racket and stringbed, there is a dwell time of contact. Within the dwell contact time the shuttle is under hard acceleration. The shuttle is never under constant velocity during contact dwell time. Upon exiting the stringbed, the shuttle is under deceleration. So at contact and after contact, the shuttle is and never under a fix velocity. The racket speed is also never under constant velocity before, during and after shuttle contact. Hence the mv components or conservation of momentum, can not express or capture this interaction properly.
     
    #29 cooler, Feb 25, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2010
  10. Trying2improve

    Trying2improve Regular Member

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    As Kwun wrote "as with most things in badminton, things are not so simple."

    Yes, faster swing will produce more power, but there are many other factors:

    1. It should not be a constant swing because then the power is not maximized. As ZJH said in his training video, it is the swing during impact that is crucial. That is why proper wristwork is needed, or what elvinteh said "strike". Eg. If I swing a whip at a constant speed, it is not going to cause as much pain than if I (for lack of a better word) whipped it at the moment of impact. If fact a pro tried to teach me how to whip my racquet, not merely turning the wrist. So technique is a crucial factor.
    2. The angle of contact between the string bed and shuttle will determine power also. Some people can swing fast yet slice the shuttle, so losing power. This can be done purposely for deception.

    3. The equipment must be matched to the user's ability. And it must be used properly.
    a. The weight, as Kwun has pointed out, must match the user. Also the balance point. Just like a hammer. If I hold a hammer near the head, I am not going to get a hit that is as strong as if I hold it further from the head. But there is an optimum. Imagine if I can lift up a maximum of 100 kg. If You attach the 100 kg weight to one end of a meter long pole and I try to lift it up using the other end, I won't be able to do it. So, the balance point must match the weight and the user for maximum angular momentum.
    b. The flexibility or stiffness of the racquet. This is because you want to build up the energy in the shaft and then release it suddenly. This is just like shooting an arrow with a bow. If I have a very stiif bow then I can hardly draw the bow back. Say I can only draw the string back 1 centimeter. When I release the string the arrow is not going to shoot far. But if I have a very thin and flexible bow, then I hardly have to use any strength to draw the string to the full. But there is very little energy stored in the bow, so when I shoot the arrow won’t go far either. I need a bow which will bend to the fullest yet it is just stiff enough that it needs all my strength to do it. Then it will fly the farthest. But if you are stronger than me, then you can shoot further if you use a thicker and stiffer bow. . However, you may be a strong man and can swing your arm fast but you throw the arrow, you won’t be able to throw the arrow far; this is using your strength and releasing it in a constant velocity. So, in badminton when you swing, you are trying to flex the racquet thus storing energy in the shaft (this is like pulling on the string of the bow). But this has to be released in as short a time as possible during impact, not before or after.
    c. The string bed and the frame will also affect the power of the stroke. Again, the elasticity and tension of the string, and the stiffness of the frame will determine how much “trampoline” propulsion is transferred to the shuttle.A little baby on a very tight and heavy trampoline is not going to move the bed at all. A big and heavy giant on a very elastic and loose trampoline is going to cause the whole bed to sag down and then there is not enough stored tension to even lift him up. Imagine a third person on a trampoline that matches his jump and weight. If then these 3 persons jump on their respective trampoline with the same speed, the baby will hardly bounce up, the giant will sink and not get up, but the third person will be propelled the highest.
    So many people have asked for recommendations on specific brands and models of racquets for themselves. That is a wrong concept. You see pros that can flex their racquets and hit tremendous smashes. But not everybody have the same strength, swing and techniques to do what the pros do. That is why even pros use different models (and subject to their sponsors).
    To get more power, you need to take care of the many factors that contribute to it, not just swing speed. When you swing, you want to store that energy into the shaft by flexing it ( just like pulling on the string of a bow) and then releasing it in a explosive way when contacting the shuttle. This is to maximize your stroke and get maximum power.
     
  11. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Trying2improve,
    Very comprehensive post for only your third post! [​IMG]
    You have practically covered every factor involved except maybe for forearm pronation/supination... but you do mention the explosive whip effect at point of impact.
     
  12. Trying2improve

    Trying2improve Regular Member

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    Visor, thank you. Of course forearm pronation/supination is necessary for maximum swing and wrist whipping. For example, try turning the wrist with a panhandle grip, the wrist cannot go far. There are other nuts and bolts details about getting power and control, eg. a loose grip at start of swing and tightening at impact, not locking up the wrist, etc.. We don't want to get into everything here. But this is what makes badminton interesting, and more deceptive than, say, tennis. Hope I don't get any flak from anyone who likes tennis, heheh.
     
  13. Boaster

    Boaster Regular Member

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    First off, thanks guys for all the insight. VERY informative information here and I think it has answered lots of questions. :)

    I guess the only thing is to find the "balance".
     
  14. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    this energy storage-release component has been discussed and explained before as well.(post #24)
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79268&highlight=bow&page=3
     
    #34 cooler, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  15. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    It's a no brainer to understand that faster racket swing will generate faster shuttle speed, assuming same racket striking similar shuttlecock flying thru the same air quailty. A proficient smasher on his worst day using the crappist racket, crappist string, at any usable tension (ie shuttlecock don't get stuck between string) can out smash a beginner at his peak mental and physical condition equipped with the best suited racket and string, scientifically optimized for his ability, strung at his optimized tension down to +/ 0.05 0.1 lbs accuracy. Having speed solves alot of problems, from footwork to the tip of your racket. I've said that many times over.

    one of it in MA thread http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34876&highlight=beast&page=7

    refresher course http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-521078122841313047&q=kung+fu+hustle#
     
    #35 cooler, Feb 26, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2010
  16. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    :p..leave it to master cooler to bring back & refresh the old posts..
    yeah, i think i've read similar synopsis/break down before (and i believe there may be a couple other similar ones)..
    btw, it's interesting the poster in that link above (post #24) is also from Canada.
     
  17. Crimz

    Crimz Regular Member

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    Yes apparently thats what I heard. A faster swing speed gives more power. According to a theory which i forgot, speed or acceleration and mass are part of a formula that gives you power or velocity or smth? Yeah both mass and speed play a part.
     
  18. Boaster

    Boaster Regular Member

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    great info here..
     
  19. Athelete1234

    Athelete1234 Regular Member

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    It's kind of common sense, but yes, swing faster does make the bird fly faster. That's why you swing with a lot of force to produce a powerful smash, and you control your strength to get a nice dropshot that lands in the forecourt.
     
  20. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yes, but one can only swing the racket only so fast... there is a terminal speed at which point the muscles can only contract so fast, regardless of how light the racket is.

    On the other side of the coin, one can only effectively wield a heavy racket (think mass in the momentum equation) for so long without getting tired. So, somewhere in the middle is where we can find an effective compromise/balance where we can swing a certain racket mass fast enough to genererate max momentum for long enough without getting fatigued.
     

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