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Fighting spirit? Pointless attempt??

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by LazyBuddy, Feb 2, 2004.

  1. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Ok, after thinking about it over and over again, I decided to bring this up. My intention is NOT to create another debate, but just wondering what ppl think about such issue(s).

    Here's my story. As some of u might know, I am kinda like an aggressive defender (skill not good though). Early days, I tend to do some crazy moves, like diving (a lot more) saves, etc. After suffering some relatively serious injuries, I tend to work on my footwork, and try to cut down the aggressive moves. However, maybe just my personality, I could not totally avoid such moves. Therefore, still once a while, I will dive for a save. As in different clubs, there are several individuals questioned about my moves. They claimed that they would feel sorry for me, and my attempt would mess up their game plan, as they don't dare to drop me around. If I scare them, they had to be forced to be going easy on me. I am apperiate for their kindness (if they really mean that), but sometimes, when the game was on the line, I also might question about their real intension, as they also clearly showed some degree of frustration of missed a point...

    Bascially, I think i know what I was doing. If playing against ppl way better than me, or way below my lvl, I won't attempt such moves, as the result won't be really changed. However, for a very intensive game, especially after some long rallies, I just hate to see the bird landing in front of me, if I can do something to "extend" my reach for another 2 inches or so. I know I need to further improve on my footwork, but that's more like a long shot, not going to help me in the next 0.01 sec or so.

    Of course, my skill is nowhere near elites, like Xia. But I think if he could be praised for his "never give up" spirit, it should be a good thing in some point. Isn't badminton (actually, all sports) is also a mental game, as who could hold onto the last, who will be the winner?

    Don't get me wrong. I am not saying I just bully through and don't want to listen to others. I tried to be careful (learned some better tech moves from Discovery, as they showing how airborne ranger attempt landing on air drop...), and try not do as often. However, once the game is on the line, I want to be competitive, and doing everything to win. I could not agree with some extreme comments, as such stuff are just "pointless, useless", etc.

    What's ur thought?
     
    #1 LazyBuddy, Feb 2, 2004
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2004
  2. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

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    I used to dive a lot several years ago, but now that I move faster I don't need to so much. And now I use it more judiciously.
    e.g. in a club night game with mixed skill levels I wouldn't bother.
    in a close fought club night game between equals, I'd be more likely to, because the win would be "worth" more.
    In a match or a tournament I would be more likely to, but not so much in the first few points of the first qame, as in the 3rd game.

    I've never had anyone say anything about it though, and I'm not sure what I'd think if someone did. It would probably depend on who it was and what the situation was.
    In a friendly game, maybe fair enough
    But in a competative game, stuff 'em. Play to win. Whatever, within the rules, it takes.
     
  3. dlp

    dlp Regular Member

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    I have seen a league player who falls down (rather than dives) all the time. He has perfected this but it is quite dangerous to play with him and frustrating to play against since you tend to be distracted and not want to hit him with the shuttle when he is falling around . :)

    As Neil says there is no advantage in continuosly diving but for a vital point if it is the only option there can be no complaint from the other side.
     
  4. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Fighting spirit is very important in competitive games and I think this is one of the many ingredients whether you win or lose in a game. However, in my competitive years, I have never done a diving-save. I think the shuttle placement, footworks, mental vision have helped me in avoiding such manuever. I have played with such players before (lots of dives) that will try to save each shot and I don't see the benefit. Most of the time lose on points because slow in recovery. However, when I play such players, I don't feel sorry and thus will place the shuttle where they will have a harder time reaching :eek:

    If you find such manuevers worked before, just remember it might not work with other opponents in different environment, ie use sparingly.

    Cheers.
     
  5. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    1. I agree. Proper footwork and skill will greatly reduce the chance. However, nothing 100%, right. Look at Xia, he's surely much better than 99.9999% of us in all categories, but he still needs his moves, of course, against much better opponents as well.

    2. I agree. However, what I believe is, if I don't go for it, it will be 100% for losing a point. If I go, there's great chance I will tap into net, or do a weak return and let them smash back, but at least, I get some slim chances - and most important, I tried...

    Just some of my own thoughts...
     
  6. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    If your opponents change their shot placement because they feel sorry for you, then they are not playing competitively. Therefore, if they *are* playing competitively, then this must be an excuse for losing the point.

    Obviously diving is not something to practice or rely on, but if it helps you in some cases then use it.
     
  7. ptang777

    ptang777 Regular Member

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    I used to dive alot. Some dives resulted because of bad footwork, but some dives were the result of not wanting to give up a point. Bruises were very common for me, some even looked very nasty but never felt much pain during the game. Now that my footwork has improved, I dive less but I still do because I still refuse to give up points. I guess that's just the way I am. But the most noticable difference is that I land much softer when I dive now. Maybe I got the proper diving technique now?:eek:

    Many people keeping telling me it's not worth it, but for me, diving is also fun! And I will keep diving if I feel my footwork won't get me to the shuttle.:p
     
  8. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    On most occasions though, good footwork will not allow you to dive. Good footwork is almost fundamentally opposed to diving, since recovery is such an important part of footwork.

    However there are some occasions where you can recognise the need to dive before your footwork has stopped you.
     
  9. jayes

    jayes Regular Member

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    Yes, I see your point and perspective. Let me offer a different perspective.

    Personally, I don't let professional players confirm an action. :) Let me elaborate. Xia is way better than many of us and I am sure there are many reasons that he did and only he knew the reason. We, as an observer, only see the result, ie he did a saving dive. As a competitive player, there are a lot to consider, one of them is physical health. Depending on tournament schedule, I might be required to be fit for the next competition (can happen a few weeks or months after). Some of the schedule is close enough that any deteriorating health issue, especially the one that is avoidable, is frown upon. Besides at professional level, the physical fitness is also higher than normal. A professional can do steps that a normal player has difficulty doing because he (or she) has the physical capability. Some of the steps are not being taught but become natural and never being minutely detailed by the player but only by the observers.

    I am glad that you have such a fighting spirit that you will go for every shot, but with improved skills, I am sure the effort will be easier and less risky. Just remember that when doing a saving dive, consider the worthiness of such an action. Is it worth it? In competition, there are at least 15 points/game to fight on and at least 2 games for each opponent(s) to play against. Furthermore, it may take a few days for a competition. Sure, a saving dive might give you a winning return or the chance of one, but in badminton you gain a point when you are serving. Yes, I am aware of the perspective of winning one point at a time. Again, my advice is if you have to use a saving dive, just because of your competitive nature, use it sparingly and because you are convinced that it is the right thing to do.

    Cheers.
     
  10. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Lol... same here.

    As once I was watching the Discovery channel, and they were explaining how the airborne rangers protect themselves during landing process. Things like never directly landing on ur knees, feet, but safer on the side of thighs, etc. I was like, hey, that might work for me, then, u know... ;)
     
  11. LazyBuddy

    LazyBuddy Regular Member

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    Very good point. I never thought about this. It's very true, they have been special trained for some stuff, which we are not.

    I always tell others don't use pros as reference (at least, not all the time), such as selecting equipment, etc. Ooops, guess I did not really follow my own word this time. :rolleyes:
     
  12. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    Lin Dan does a lot of dives. and he seems to have mastered it. i have seen him dive in the middle of the rally to get a backhand net shot, get up, and then rush back to get a the forehand backcourt. quite impressive.

    but they are pros.

    the argument for dives. if you see a birdie heading towards the floor, and then your legs are stuck (bad footwork), you know that if you don't dive, you will have a probability of 100% losing that rally. if you dive, you may have 90% losing that rally. is that worth the dive? if the rally is important, like a match point, perhaps. granted that at our level, the chances of diving and then recovered enough and winning the rally is rather rare. in doubles it is more likely as your have a partner to cover for you while you are crawling back on your feet. singles will be much tougher.

    i have made saves with diving several times, the ones that i ended up winning, i managed to whack the shuttle on the net cord and then it tumbles over, and on some cases, i actually managed to control a perfect net shot. but those are really really rare, most of the time i will give away a weak lift.

    as pointed out, the need for dive is a direct result of bad footwork. if someone has "perfect footwork". there will be no need for dive. but we all know that nobody will ever achieve perfection. even pros needs to dive that means they don't have perfect footwork either.

    however, the better your footwork is, the better your court coverage and thus the less need for doing a dive. as a result, the way to avoid a dive is to practice footwork.

    the other thing that was raise is that diving can cause injury. yeah perhaps. but volleyball players dives everyday, there gotta be a way to learn how to dive correctly. but still, if i have the choice of having to practice footwork more or dive more, i will choose practice footwork more...

    here ends my babbling.
     
  13. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    Stunt men do dives too!!


    Apparently you cant damage a ligament without some form of impact (rupture at least). therefore singles should be fairly safe. If you dive apparently this may create impact, and therfore injury, if unlucky.

    I know someone who damged a ligament playing singles however because when he smashed, and landed, the racket hit his knee, just as it loaded. His ligament ruptured, and he hasnt been able to play properly since (2years ago), only knocking up without moving.
     
  14. seven

    seven New Member

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    Well, as I usually fight a lot on court, I have always dived a lot and sometimes dived several times in the same rally before ending by winning it (well, I can't manage this one every time though! ;) ).

    I think players need to dive when they are late, which can happen at any level, if your opponent is good enough!
    Being late can be due to bad footwork, but also due to low fitness or bad anticipation... or just great deception or pace on the opponent's side...

    For a dive to be efficient however, the shot must be placed intelligently so the opponent gets very little chance of killing the rally, otherwise there is no use diving.
    You also need to be able to get up very quickly and therefore be dynamic enough (strong legs and abdominals).

    Another important point : even if you dive and lose the point, the dive is useful as it shows your opponent your mental toughness and fighting spirit, and shows him how hard he will need to work to score any point.
    Psychological "war" that is! ;)

    There is one risk though : it is to start diving at any feather, even when it isn't needed to reach the feather.
    The choice of diving should only be the last solution, when there is no other way to get the feather back...

    My conclusion is that you must keep your fighting spirit, but try and improve your footwork so you can return more and more difficult shots without needing to dive! :cool:
     
  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    The problem can be viewed in terms of risk:benefit ratio

    The risks of diving have been documented and may be long term.

    What are the benefits? Save a desperate shot? But the point has to make a difference to the game i.e. near the end of the game.

    Is it worth the risk of injury in a competitive game? Obviously so if you are an international.

    How about if you are an amateur player at a social club session? Any point in diving? To me the risks of diving and long term injury seem to outweigh the benefits of 'making the shot'. Of course, it is up to the individual him/herself to make that decision according to their own priorities.
     
  16. cappy75

    cappy75 Regular Member

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    After improvement in footwork, there's usually not much length for me to gain by diving as my stance is solid upon execution of my last step... which makes it harder for me to dive. Agreed with some of the posters that going for that shot just to stay in the game doesn't have much advantage in the long term. Chance of injury is pretty high in this sport, why risk your long term mobility over a friendly game? Heck! Even now, my knees creaked whenever I move about. I hate to blow my knees and ankles on the account of one point in a game.
     
  17. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    I like to dive to save a point, even at my age. As LB has said, it's something in you that you never want to give up trying! It adds excitement for both spectators and players alike. Just last Sunday, I save a net shot by diving and lobbing the bird to the baseline of an onrushing opponent. He smashed into the net as my partner was standing in the middle of the court to counter any moves. Maybe he was distracted by my unexpected save or he was over-excited. It doesn't really matter. And that point was crucial as we were playing duece and we eventually won the match.

    As was pointed out, Xia and Lin made a few spectacular saves through diving. Yes, even their superior footwork was not good enough for all occasions, so we should not be apologetic. Play by the rules and win. Don't let your opponents' comments affect your play or the outcome. Use whatever legitimate means to try to win as that is your goal.

    Obviously it is better to dive in doubles than in singles for reason of court coverage. In singles, once you are stranded after a dive, there is no partner to cover you. So, if possible, recover fast for another shot after your dive. Lin is particularly good at this and he seems to use his big hands to cushion off his landing as well as to push off for the subsequent rebound. Maybe, to learn how to deliver a save dive is a better option than completely taking it off from your arsenal!

    Showmanship and gamesmanship attract as well as the 'never-say-die' attitude! Cheers for that!
     
    #17 Loh, Feb 3, 2004
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2004
  18. seven

    seven New Member

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    Obviously I will only dive in competition, not when I'm training at my club.

    About the risk, I've been diving for years and years, and the only bad effect on my health was scraping my knees, elbows, and hip sometimes...
    Nothing very important when compared to an important win!

    There is probably a risk when you don't know how to dive properly, but once you've got the habit of diving, I don't think there are many more risks than for anything else... (a big lunge is at least as dangerous)
     
  19. ptang777

    ptang777 Regular Member

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    I have played against players who dive and land pretty hard. You can really hear the thump. But the way I dive, is more softer and I must admit that I dive quite often and never come close to getting seriously injured. Every time I dive I feel very comfortable doing so and I am confident that my dive will not get me injured as opposed to in baseball, I am scared of doing a head first slide (I can feel that I'll get injured for sure if I did). So I'm guessing that the way you dive plays a big role in determining the probability of injury. I've seen people get hurt easily from diving and I've seen people who never get injured from diving. So I think it's all about the quality of the dives and not how often you dive. Bad quality dives? Then don't do it. Good technique? Dive as much as you like!:)

    Also, I think diving is OK only if you can consistently get a good shot out of it. I always do a net shot when diving towards the net and most of my shots are always tight. I don't keep track, but I tend to win alot of my diving points. If you only win less than 20% of your diving points, then don't dive.
     
  20. wood_22_chuck

    wood_22_chuck Regular Member

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    You gotta factor in the enjoyment of the game. Diving to make an extra point? At the risk of injury? Maybe if the stakes were higher.

    In my opinion, the readers of BForum (JR excluded) are recreational, and really enjoy playing badminton, at club level, school level, district level. If you're aspiring to be a National-level player, what are you doing reading BForum? GO AND TRAIN or something ...

    I enjoy playing HEALTHY badminton and pushing exertions in a CONTROLLED manner. Diving? I'll be group "D" soon, in the age survey. So not for me, thanks. Not when there's another game to be played another day (or even the same day).

    -dave
     

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