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Frames

Discussion in 'Badminton Rackets / Equipment' started by Byro-Nenium, May 11, 2002.

  1. Byro-Nenium

    Byro-Nenium Regular Member

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    I've been thinking, the new frames, well not new frames but ever since the birth of the Cab20, the frames had been made out of Aluminium or Aluminum and before that wood. No doubt wood is by far the weakest out of the 3 materials.

    I was wondering, since the Aluminium frames are harder to break, does that mean that they can hold higher tensions?

    thanx
     
  2. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    perhaps. one drawback of the aluminum frame is that they can be permanently deformed. while a carbon fiber frame is more elastic and will bounce back to the original frame. i have a cab8dx aluminum frame racket, after a few stringing at 24+ lbs tension, the frame head looks rather warped. already.
     
  3. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    one reason is that yonex had used only average aluminum alloy for manufacturing their rackets. Better Al alloy wouldn't do that or would deform at much later time. Kwun, is your racing bike made of Al tubes?
     
  4. ayl

    ayl Regular Member

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    G'day all,

    I think it all comes down to the weight ratio vs material performance when it comes to deciding which material is best for a badminton racket.

    Kwun is right that in that carbon graphite is better material to use than aluminium as it has more tensile strength than aluminium, and it has more resistance to permanent deformation than aluminium, as alumiuium is a pliable material, whereas graphite is far less so. There's no problem in making the aluminium racket as strong as graphite version except it would probably weight twice as much.

    The best metal commonly available that can hold highest tension would be chromium steel. This is what most racing car's roll cage are made of - maximum tensile strenght with highest deformity resistance. (and if you do break one - you can weld it back!) But if we are to make our rackets out of this material we all better be superman like in our body build, or play badminton on the moon as it would probably weight as much as a cricket bat! ;)
     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    ayl

    chrome-steel or commonly chrome moly is strong but does not even come close to titanium on a tensile strength per unit weight basis. The best is titanium alloy but for the whole frame and not just the peek-a-boo mesh at 9 and 3 o'clock.
     
  6. ayl

    ayl Regular Member

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    Yes forgot about Titanium - oops! Thanks for pointing out cooler.

    Also boron and beryllium - but they are all exotic materials which would make rackets rather expensive.

    Anyone using depleted uranium to make rackets yet? ;)

    Come to think of it, what's the real benefit of having titanium mesh at 3 & 9 O'clock position? Yonex's explaination is it allows better racket balance and control - but how?
     
  7. lchan

    lchan Regular Member

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    dont forget about aermet. it whips titanium.
     
  8. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    Ichan, can you elaborate on aermet? what is it?
     
  9. lchan

    lchan Regular Member

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    http://www.matweb.com

    you can do a search here on materials. However, for titanium, there are many types of titanium and i do not know which is used on racquets. As for aermet used in gosen products, my assumption is that it's aermet 100. Has a tensile strength of approx 280000psi and it's nickel and cobalt. It is said to be stronger the cro-moly.
    The company that created it is carpenter technology corporation. www.cartech.com
     
  10. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    ichan, thanks for the link. Very interesting.
    However, i think ti alloy still have an edge over aermet. I based on yield tensile strength only.

    Yes, aermet is technical stronger but also heavier too. If weight is not a great concern (like tank armors or explosion shielding) aermet is better. However, for badminton racquet or jet fighter, weight do matter and that's is where Ti alloy wins out, most of the time. (there are cheaper and weaker ti alloys too)

    on yield strengths

    aermet 250 to 260 kpsi density = 7.892 g/cc strength/wt ratio = 31.7 - 32.9 kpsi/g/cc

    Timetal 15-3 (Ti15V3Cr3Sn3Al) 156 to 175 kpsi density =4.42 to 4.78 g/cc strength /wt ratio = 35.3 to 36.6 kpsi/g/cc

    beside strength, elasticity is important too and is why in badminton, measure of modulus is more important.

    the best (or close to the best) ti alloy and aermet listed above yielded similar modulus of elasticity (MOE)of 24.4 to 24.6 GPa/g/cc

    if you look at moe of carbon fiber, it's between 57 (cheap graphite) to 200+ GPa/g/cc for the good stuffs. HELLO

    Now this proves what i've screamed and other have said b4, the ti-mesh is BS, not only that, it weaken the frame because it displaced some useful and stronger graphite. Note that i was referring to the frame only.
     
    #10 cooler, May 23, 2002
    Last edited: May 23, 2002
  11. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    mine's titanium. :D

    but that's not a fair comparison. bicycle frames are constructed differently. they have much larger tube diameter. the stiffness of the tubing is proportional to the 4th power of the tube diameter. and since the tubings are so stiff on a bike, it is much harder to bend them. and thus less chance for them to deform.

    dings do form on the tubings when a stone hit it. which means the material is soft
     
  12. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    ayl, when i was young. i used to have a steel racket! :)
     
  13. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    more on titanium

    titanium perhaps may be a potential material for frames. but i think the reason it has not been used is that it is very difficult to beat titanium into shape. and that's the reason why a lot of the titanium bikes are so expensive.

    and that carbon fiber is relatively cheap to work on. and that's probably why we are seeing carbon racket everywhere.
     
  14. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    you're right kwun. I've looked into building the ultimate all ti alloy racket but found out that ti alloy tubes don't come in small diameter. Also bending and forming them at small diameters are extremely difficult. Welding thin wall ti tubes is tough too. It can be done but at NASA budget level. Who knows, maybe japanese might come up with a new manufacturing process. I don't mind paying 500-1000 C$ racket if i know it's light and never breaks even in clashes.
     
  15. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    cooler. i think it is possible to tailor made a mould and draw titanium into the "U" shaped tubing for a frame. but forming the egg shape will require some work, probably cold formed. with my limited knowledge in machining and metallurgy, i am not sure how that's that can be done.

    i don't think any welding would be needed. remember all the aluminum frames (eg. cab8/9) had a T. i think similar thing will need to be done to the Ti frame. unless if there is a good way to bond carbon fiber and titanium together.

    Ti being so soft won't be useful for the shaft.

    but it would be very cool to have a complete Ti racket, a brushed silvery beast all the way from the handle cone to the whole frame. imagine the "OOooo...." and "Ahh..." you would get in the gym..

    one of these days. may be cooler you and i can meet up and work on it. :)
     
  16. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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  17. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    actually, bonding carbon fibers and Ti together is commercially available in in other sports like golf. Callaway's latest (2002) C4 wood driver is woven graphite onto molded tungsten. And of course clones of C4 is made from woven graphite and Ti. If it could take the whacking of golf balls, racquets made from this method would take clashing without damage.

    The all new Integra Hybrid combines the inner core strength of titanium with the explosive distance of carbon graphite. It's a new technology for 2002! Try it and hit it long!

    Acer C4 gives you the feel of graphite and the power of titanium. A 330cc forged Titanium clubhead compression molded with high modulus woven sheets of carbon fiber. Now you can have the best of both worlds....Feel and Power!
     
    #17 cooler, May 24, 2002
    Last edited: May 24, 2002
  18. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    pic of c4

    pic of c4
     

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  19. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    thanks for the matweb link, i did some background checking on aermet. Technically, aermet alloy compare very well with Ti alloys and in some application, is even better than Ti alloy. Material wise, ti cost a bit more but in a badminton racquet, material cost difference to make the frame is not significant. However, to make aermet as light as Ti alloys, it has to be very thin, in the range of 0.5 to 0.7mm for bike frame. The expensive part is welding them perfectly at this (or less for badminton frame) wall thickness, a task that is even tougher than welding Ti alloys. If aermet frame is constructed like the old cab8, the external T joint would minimize or eliminate the welding process. I'm beginning to like this material because it's potential is not yet fully exploited yet.

    (back in 1995, i read about some really light mountain bike ~21 to 22 lbs range that was made from 'special' thin walled chrome moly steel, however, aermet was not mentioned but now i bet it was made from aermet tubings)
     
    #19 cooler, May 24, 2002
    Last edited: May 24, 2002
  20. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    cooler. from what i have seen, carbon fiber composite and other material are usually butted and then glued together. that's what they did to a bicycle frame that i used to own. while it is a strong bond, i am wondering how strong it'd be for badminton. the contact surface at the T area is quite small, and i think it will need a generous amount of butting to get that to be strong.

    the contact surface between the CF and the Ti on the club head seems to be quite large.
     

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