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From Cab20 to VT80, your all-time YY-favorites

Discussion in 'Badminton Rackets / Equipment' started by Tadashi, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Tadashi

    Tadashi Regular Member

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    Ladies, this is for collectors.

    the all-time popular YY-racket selection of the last decade, based on your collective history of posts here from this forum. With your help, we can track successor models and compare them with out-of-stock models.

    For example, with sophisticated computing power we can decompose a racket's balance into this graphic, and many things more (like swing weight and ball speed).

    alltime.gif

    However, I'm missing 14 values, please help out and fill in the correct numbers, correct them if you know better? Secondly, do you agree, which ones would you strike out, or add?

    Code:
    	weight	length	balance_point
    ------------------------------------------
    mp100	0.092	0.674	?
    mp99	0.087	0.674	?
    at700	0.087	0.674	0.290
    ns9900	0.087	0.674	0.285
    ns8000	0.092	0.674	0.280
    ns8000	0.087	0.674	0.280
    at800of	0.082	0.674	?
    at800de	0.082	0.674	?
    at800of	0.087	0.674	?
    at800de	0.087	0.674	?
    cab20	0.092	0.664	?
    at900-t	0.087	0.674	0.305
    at900-t	0.0825	0.674	0.305
    at900-p	0.087	0.674	?
    at900-p	0.0825	0.674	?
    vt80	0.0875	0.675	0.290
    vt80	0.0825	0.675	0.290
    vtzf	0.0875	0.674	0.308
    vtzf	0.0825	0.674	0.308
    arc-10	0.0875	0.674	0.290
    arc-10	0.0925	0.674	0.290
    arczs	0.0875	0.674	?
    ti10	0.092	?	?
    ti10	0.087	?	?
    
    Weight (kg): 
    - Take the average of labeled values, or 
    - state your own true value.
    
    Balance Point (m): 
    - Take the smaller of labeled values, 
    - the average, or 
    - state your own true value.
    
    The average = (low number + high number) / 2.0 .
    
    Now go and check your old equipment.
     
  2. vajrasattva

    vajrasattva Regular Member

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    strung or unstrung?

    my mp99 BP strung is 292, vt80 strung is 305.. at700 is at 308, at900p at 305 there abouts approximately..
     
  3. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Kinda confusing... your wts look unstrung ungripped ie. dry, but your BPs look strung and gripped.
     
    #3 visor, Jul 3, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2013
  4. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Yes. Please state if the weights and balance points are with or without strings and grips.

    I have a few cab 20's that can be measured. Please state the standardised conditions for the observations and I will try to help with the data points.
     
  5. quixilver

    quixilver Regular Member

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    How can you differentiate them ? Any particular formula to calculate the effect of additional weight caused by the string and grip ?
     
  6. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I know because I've measure a few vt80, vtzf, arc10, etc on that list to know representative wts and BPs. :)
     
  7. quixilver

    quixilver Regular Member

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    LOL... No wonder :)
    Anyway, among the rackets I have, I always compare the BP after they're strung and wrapped with a grip according to my usual setup because at the end of the day, I will be using them all on my own preferable setup. Though it may not be representable for scientific documentation...
     
  8. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Even the weights don't seem actual measurements but rather the middle of the U range. MP100 also comes in 3U for example and likewise there must also be a 2U MP99

    But this accounts for those measurements then :D:
    "Weight (kg):
    - Take the average of labeled values, or - state your own true value.Balance Point (m): - Take the smaller of labeled values, - the average, or - state your own true value.The average = (low number + high number) / 2.0 .

    As explained he scoured this forum for numbers and this must be the result so far (a mixture of strung and unstrung perhaps but more likely strung and gripped in most cases).


    "is not"
    :p
     
    #8 demolidor, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  9. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    I have quite a few of the racquets mentioned above but they are all strung and gripped. I don't think I'd be prepared to remove the strings and grips just to get dry BPs to be honest.

    Some of my Carbonexes (originals) are not overgripped including my BR2, but does have strings. My isometric racquets all have overgrips and strings.
     
  10. Tadashi

    Tadashi Regular Member

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    Good comments. Very good.

    Initially, catalogue claims would have sufficed, but "real setups" ... better.

    @everybody
    Sent your measurements here http://bit.ly/12fsdQU The personal-setup specs I can account for easily. Just tick/state whether you refer to "dry," "with strings and grip," "strings only," or "grip only." Survey is

    - self-explanatory and
    - simple to use.

    All answers go here http://bit.ly/12fsdQU Even, if the list is "short," the more people answer, the better. So, spread the word. Ask your collegues to come up with the numbers. Go on Twitter.

    Updates, of course go here, but among the contributors first. See below.




    -----------

    In the spirit of information societal ... :)

    Go make your measurements, fill out the forms out of memory. If you have questions, return. I think I addressed them all here.



    ## Survey Notes


    ### What I

    - If you talk about balance points, you actually talk about swing weights, a measure of how easy it is to start a racket swinging; we can calculate it based on the requested numbers only. The swing weight determines how fast you can strike with a racket, as discussed elsewhere in this forum.

    ### What II

    - I'm going to ask for six numbers, that's it.

    - Length, weight and balance point; plus a subjective flex/stiff scaling; and the then-asking price for that model.

    ### How

    - You fill out one racket at a time, if you have many.

    - I changed the numbering into Roman "XVII" numbers ... kidding. It's going to be "123" grams and millimeters for your input, but just stay metric.

    - Measure the BP and length from the butt/handle's end (do it three times, sum all up, divide by 3, then take the next racket - for the serious ones, ten times).

    - A ruler suffices. Don't use the finger, it doesn't have to be a knife edge, but something thinner should do it. Discuss, if you want to. If you use laser, good for you.

    - I'm going to ask you for subjective flex-feeling about the shaft, from ultra stiff to ultra flex on a 7-point scale, and 4 is even-balanced. This is a fuzzy thing, because bodybuilders would rate things more flexible than the average Joe. Just do it.

    ### Collectibles

    - For owners of rare YY-rackets, like the Boron, you can now add it to the list and fill in the specs, as "Other models."

    - For variants, you can now add it by selecting the base racket (CAB20) and add the "SP"-label or whatever edition name in the next "Other models" box.

    ### World Market Beat

    - I'm also asking about price, location and when you bought the racket. Just use the currency of the seller, I can account and convert that number into comparable, constant prices - as long as you state what year and what location the shop was.

    - Online payments in US dollars: choose "US West & East Coast" as location, I then assume US dollars as currency and only account for inflation rates within the US, but won't convert your actual home currency, say Hong Kong dollars, which I don't ask for anyway. The asking price and seller's currency are prime.

    - Check the Big Mac index, to get an idea.

    ### Updates & Results

    - Of course, shared among all contributors first!

    - e-mail addresses then required, if you don't trust Google, send a private message to me here on BadmintonCentral.com (activate "Friend" if necessary), but having your info in the survey tables makes it easier to ask for corrections etcetera. If you need encryption, notify me here. I offer GPG.

    - It however takes some time to get enough input from you, and then time to inspect the input for bogus stuff, I'm not preventing repeated input, for instance. So, if you input imperial inches and ounces, I'm going to either delete or convert them, but you better repeat the input.

    ### Errors

    - All on my part. I'm confident we all come up with solutions in evolutionary fashion, nature does not look for the best imaginable, but the best available.

    - Swing weights are going to be false for sure, as your measurements will be false for sure. But they are more correct and less wrong than the shops' catalogues, and much better than statements like "it's a powerful racket for intermediates." The more input, the less error.

    ### Q&A

    #### Grip, strings, naked?

    [MENTION=7]Cheung[/MENTION]
    [MENTION=56937]quixilver[/MENTION]
    Well, if everybody fill in their specs correctly, regardless what state the racket is, then the numbers magically separate the rackets in their respective "cluster," or group, regardless of the model's name.

    #### Replication

    [MENTION=1495]demolidor[/MENTION]
    Methodology is probably the most boring part of any report to read. Most people don't get there, or skip it. I will keep stuff pretty straightforward and anybody who'd like to replicate would find it at least logical, if not plausible —— as you have done, since you found out about the average.

    ### Why

    Racket charts are unintentionally distracting you from the real issues. It takes some great professorial math to calculate the swing weight (various axis) based on what you read in the catalogues, which is what you actually like to know, if you talk about the balance point etcetera. But it's doable, given correct data input.

    So, spread the word.
    Get a ruler, a scale and your old rackets.

    http://bit.ly/12fsdQU

    Blog about it, twitter it.
     
  11. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    The grip I would consider the biggest problem here. Strung/unstrung is reasonably consistent but with grips you can go a number of ways: original grip + overgrip; original grip + replacement grip (PU or towel); remove original grip and use only overgrip; remove original grip and use PU or towel replacement; remove original grip, cover wooden handle with athletic or electrical tape first and then cover with over-, replacement- or towel grip. Even a different colour can cause a 2gr. difference and change the bp ... let alone the people with multiple layers of grip.

    My 3U AT800D for example is 99gr. strung and overgrip only (RKEP G09L green) (with maybe some electrical tape underneath) and BP 293mm.

    3U AT700 (1st gen, should be separated as well as all the Ti-10's) dead stock factory strung bp 303mm @ 93gr. (incl. plastic wrapper). With a simple 11.7cm overgrip (RKEP G09L red) it turns into 101.5gr @ 285mm (and feels extremely nice :))

    But I will fill in a few and let you sort it out ;)[​IMG]
     
    #11 demolidor, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  12. Tadashi

    Tadashi Regular Member

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    Very good.

    Impressive impact of the grip, seems to make a head-heavy change into an almost head-light one. I already see a radically new way to look at racket charts.
     
  13. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    If you want to do it right, due to drastic grip variations and effect on bp and total wt, the only proper way is to measure and compare bare dry ie. no string, no overgrip. Otherwise there is no point to reverse calculate the bp and wt with different strings and grips.
     
  14. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Now that I read it back I see it falls right in line with the ~4gr. = 10mm bp change I use as a (rough) general rule of thumb (from when adding strings the bp usually changes about 10mm and strings weigh 3-4gr.; but the value is probably closer to 3gr. on a racket, can probably take values from Visor's headweight thread). Of course when "even" balance is ~290mm for badminton rackets and this hardly is halfway the racket I'm sure someone can write up a nice formula (if taking the middle of the U range as initial weight; of course 2U, 3U, etc. should be specified and take a fixed weight for strings).
     
    #14 demolidor, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  15. Tadashi

    Tadashi Regular Member

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    Consider all combinations of grip and strings as empirical values as they exist in reality.

    I guess we can agree on the problem by stating that we would need a Greenwich mean time-equivalent baseline, or a New York big mac-price baseline, or a 3-pt average and so on.

    Well, that's why I suggest the survey in the first place. I consider the selection of popular YY-rackets the baseline to compare all other rackets, including future YY-releases. In other words, we produce the baseline right now.
     
  16. Elisha

    Elisha Regular Member

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    I find that every 2g on the grip is 3mm of BP. Seems consistent for me before and after gripping my rackets.
     
  17. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    I personally think the best way you will get some meaningful data and get a lot of people involved is if we can eliminate one or two variables without having to demand too much from the owner. Suggest you go for something like this:

    Use only racquets with "original grip only + strings", ignore string type and whether the grip still has the cellophane. Discount racquets with original grip removed even if replaced with overgrip/towel grip.

    Strings don't affect BP as much as grips. And grips are relatively easy to remove and replace - unless you have 50 or so racquets like me!

    Although the weight of the cellophane wrap and variation in string type/gauge will have a small effect on the balance, it's probably not going to skew the overall results that much.
     
  18. Tadashi

    Tadashi Regular Member

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    absolutely, "the demand" must be reduced, what to kill and how to trim the process is key... the "length" is obviously redundant, I guess no one cuts the racket handle; concerning the grip-question, data input stay as broad as possible, data reduction after is always better than before, still weight and balance points are of such great importance, I cannot skip this. if you customise your racket in order to have an effective head-light racket, your swing weight is going to be lower (better), the question is whether people tweak it that way. I would say, I get some sleep and will see what to do about it. Continue the discussion.
     
  19. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Strings can vary from 2.8g zm62 to 3.6g zm70 and can shift bp by 5-8mm.

    A 7g rkep g09 overgrip will shift bp 10mm.

    So you see, if you want to be quantitative about this , there's really no point comparing any racket unless it's bare dry.
     
    #19 visor, Jul 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2013
  20. vajrasattva

    vajrasattva Regular Member

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    its difficult to make proper technical, sensible data,

    but it could be interesting to see the BP and head weights that people are using on their racquets they play with, with everything in.

    not many people stick to the original grip, and even grips have variation, i.e. karakal PU, green was like 19 grams, orange was 17 grams, some other color was 15.98 grams etc.. plus i do not grip the full length, i cut the grip by 6-7 inches. too many contributing factors for variability..
     

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