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Hit the shuttle early versus delay and deception

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by BernieR, May 9, 2013.

  1. BernieR

    BernieR Regular Member

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    I was just watching Taufik Hidayat playing Peter Gade, the commentator said at the start "we can expect to see a lot of delay and deception" and that was true from the first return of service, Gade delaying and making a tight net shot. Later in the match Hidayat played a great winner, a flat cross-court drive, and the commentator said "wonderful, Taufik left it to the last moment and then that little flick sent Peter completely the wrong way".

    But I have heard this (knowledgeable) commentator and other commentators as well as coaches say that it is important to hit the shuttle early.

    Sometimes I want to hit the shuttle early to take time away from opponents, but quite often I want to leave it late to deceive opponents.

    I am mostly an instinctive player, I have been playing very casually for many years without ever having any coaching or instruction, now I am trying to improve my standard and my understanding of the game.

    So I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about hitting early versus delay and deception.
     
  2. Winex West Can

    Winex West Can Regular Member

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    Bernie,
    Here's my 2 cents worth. You cannot take those two statements as being exclusive of each other in that it's one or the other. I still can take the shuttle early and play a deception shot. For example, I could take a drop shot early (at net level) making like if I am just going to block it softly into the front court and once the player move forward to intercept, flick my wrist to sent the shuttle over the player's head to the back taking the player by surprise.

    The idea of taking a shuttle early is to offer a variety of shot options that you can play so if you take a shuttle late (i.e. it is already below net level - whether it is front, mid or back court), the recourse most likely you have is to lift the bird (whether it is to the back - clear; or to the front - slow drop) as compared to one where you are able to take the shuttle early; you now have to option to lift, drive, smash (if appropriate), drop, etc.

    Taking a shuttle early is a good habit but there is no point in taking it early if it puts you off-balance or out of position as recovery and prepareness for the next shot is important too.

    Hope this is of value :)
     
  3. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Fast feet, slow hands.
    Just remember that.

    Always get to the shuttle as early as you can (within your stamina and balance, as WWC mentions), and take it as early as you can. When you're able to read your opponent better re footwork, weight transfer, weaknesses, etc, then you can throw in the occasional hold/deception shot to throw off his rhythm and keep him guessing. Obviously, if you do this every single shot it's not going to be very effective. :p

    And it goes without saying that this tactic is for the advanced players, as it gets kinda boring for the opponent if every single hold/deception shot that is done ends up in the net or out of the court. :p
     
  4. shooting stroke

    shooting stroke Regular Member

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    Hi there,

    Hitting early vs delay (deception): This are 2 different hitting preparation that has a different or similar hitting outcome depends on what type of hit that a player plans to do.

    Indeed in any coaching module, it's advisable to address the incoming birdie at it's earliest opportunity since it gives huge advantage for the player as said in a thread i made specifically for this : http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php/112623-2-Important-Habits-in-Badminton

    While it is very important for you to install the habit to address the incoming birdie at its earliest opportunity, performing a delay while making your hit also plays an important role as well IF you want to perform a deception especially the hold and hit type of deception since the "delay" component is part of its execution preparation. However, while the "delay" component in your deception will make your opponent clueless to where are you going to hit the birdie, NONE of your deception or any other deception can be executed effectively and naturally if the incoming birdie is not being address earlier FIRST. This is true since addressing the incoming birdie at its earliest opportunity is one of the crucial preparation in performing any deception and if you can't address it early then most likely your later complex movement e.g delay or double motion will be difficult to be executed thus making that deception a less convincing one.

    SS
     
  5. visor

    visor Regular Member

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  6. phili

    phili Regular Member

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    But remember for good deception you need to be at the shuttle as early as possible. Otherwise your deception wouldn't even deceive a 4 y/o.
     
  7. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Certain deceptive shots, especially at the net, require you to deliberately delay contact with the shuttle. This generally means the shuttle will be lower than it otherwise would have been.

    Delaying your shot can help you make a stronger false impression, before changing the hitting action to something different (i.e. double or triple action). It can also be used to mess with your opponent's rhythm, because your opponent is trying to time his footwork to match the timing of your shots.

    The delay should always be kept brief, with the result that you contact the shuttle only moderately lower than you could have. Long delays are not useful, and they greatly reduce the quality of your shots.
     
  8. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    This is an excellent question :) You must GET to the shuttle as early as possible, and prepare as early as possible. In doing this, you give yourself options :)

    When you hear others say hit the shuttle early, this is often what they mean! They mean get there early. Why is this? Getting there early takes time away from your opponent. When you get there and could play ANY shot, your opponent will have to stop, to see what you are going to do. Thus, you have created deception already - you prepared early, got there early, and COULD have played anything. This is preparatory deception - deception through preparation, rather than specific racket movements. This also applies further to "holding" the shuttle. Deliberately slowing the racket down just before contact, to force your opponent to stop moving, before then rapidly striking the shuttle wherever you want to hit it - this again breaks their timing, and makes them late. Holding the shuttle without getting there early is pointless, as no shot you play will be effective!

    If you play your shot straight away, your opponent will have a hard time getting there because you are not giving them any time to see your shot coming. This, in itself, creates a desire in your opponent to try and guess or anticipate where you will hit your shot. When they do this, they will try to move fractionally before you hit your shot, thus reducing your advantage from getting there early (negating your preparatory deception).

    When your opponent starts anticipating, they are now susceptible to other double action deceptions (different to delaying or "holding" deceptions). A double action is where you deliberately disguise your shot as a different shot to begin with by altering your swing e.g. feigning to lift the shuttle before playing a cross court net shot, or presenting a power smash before playing a stop drop. This makes your opponent start moving towards the wrong shot, before playing it a completely different way. This is very different to "holding" the shuttle, which simply means having early preparation, and delaying the "finish" of the stroke.

    Examples of "holding" deception:
    Holding for a net shot and then flicking off the net.
    A punch clear.

    Examples of "double action" deception:
    cross court net shot disguised as a lift
    stop drop.

    What becomes even more fun, is if you combine the two (only possible sometimes). E.g. Showing a stop drop (which involves deceptive shoulder turn) before finishing with a punch clear (by delaying the action to clear the shuttle until).

    All of this is set up by addressing the shuttle (getting to the shuttle) early!

    Good luck

    p.s. everything I said has been said by everyone else above. Just saying it again!
     
  9. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    sorry MSeeley, gonna pick some holes there :p

    This is just uncertainty on your opponents behalf. There is no deception.

    Just because someone might prepare the same way for a lot of their shots, that doesn't make them a deceptive player. That makes them hard to read/anticipate. It is not the same (imo).

    Deception requires to show one thing and do another. A well practised player that has very similar preparations for their shots means they are effectively showing nothing to start with.

    Also, a stop drop is not inherently a double action shot :confused:
     
  10. malinosega

    malinosega Regular Member

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    My simple philosophy is reach the shuttle early, hit it early or delay and deception comes next. Depends on ur strategy and the opponent position indeed. Coz to do both options you need to reach early. You wouldn't be able to do such deception if you reach the shuttle late. So it is always best to 'reach' the shuttle early, hitting it straight away or deception are ur options.
     
  11. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    You make some fair points :) Although identical preparation is not necessarily "true" deception in everyone's book, I feel that the purpose of deception is to make it impossible for your opponent to read your shots, not just to make him read the wrong shot first send him in the wrong direction! However, this is just my feeling for it. Certainly, double action shots etc are easier to qualify as deceptive :)

    The preparation I was talking about is getting there extremely early, and having all your shots look the same. I feel that this does cause some deception in itself as my opponent cannot tell what I am going to do. Not to mention other attempts at deception are very flimsy without this preparation. If I get early to the shuttle, and you know its going to be a cross slight, a straight reverse, a punch clear etc, then there is not point me playing anyway! You hear a lot of commentators talk about how early LCW gets to his shots in the rearcourt, how he could do anything and you cannot tell what he would do. I think this counts as deception, and the commentators seem to use similar definitions. What do you think?

    I am not sure I agree with your definition of deception:
    "Deception requires to show one thing and do another."
    This rule seems to rule out "holding" the shuttle, which is certainly deception in my book. Holding the shuttle, for example, on a net shot, means that I am showing nothing (as you said). They know I could play net, they know I could flick, and they know it could go in any direction. They just haven't got a clue as to which one it is! Very often, they will start to move towards the net. I will then flick or play cross or a drive at their body. I didn't show them a net shot. I just held my shot until they moved
    .

    Regardless, I agree that double motions and such are the difficult ones to achieve and probably most deceptive. A stop drop is not really a double action (of the racket), I agree. However, you are still showing them the preparation for a smash and the intial fast shoulder turn and racket swing (the first action of the body) before playing a different shot. A stop drop is definitely not a hold and hit, definitely not a delay. So what is it? I can't think of an appropriate word :s any help anybody??? :s I still think its counts as deception.

    Good comments :)
     
    #11 MSeeley, May 10, 2013
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  12. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    I don't think so - holding at the net is showing a net shot. Holding overhead is showing a drop, and holding in between is showing a block.

    If you are holding, you are showing something.

    The stop drop is then a kind of inverse of the hold deception - you are showing a strong shot, but you actually play the shot that would naturally follow from an overhead 'hold'.
     
  13. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    There is a distinction to be made. I've written about this before.

    There is no hard boundary between these two categories of deception, because whether your shot is deceptive depends on whether your opponent is deceived. ;)
     
  14. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Not according to the definition of 'deceive', where the actions of the third party do not affect property of being deceptive or not :)
     
  15. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    ...and usually you need three people to be involved before there is a "third party." ;)

    Anyway, dictionary definitions are quite irrelevant here. What matters is understanding the effect that a shot has on your opponent.
     
    #15 Gollum, May 10, 2013
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  16. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Very true... only the intermediate player who actively
    hunts the shuttle is deceived easily.

    The beginner (who doesn't know how to anticipate shots or how to read the opponent's racket head position and swing) and the advanced (who has more experience dealing and playing with deception) are not so susceptible.
     
  17. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    yes.

    From a philosophical standpoint, I think a shot and all its qualities and warts etc should stand alone. So you should not say it is deceptive or not depending upon what the receiver does.

    Otherwise you end up in a state where the exact same shot can be deceptive in one instance and not in another (depending on how the receiver reacted). I don't think this is accurate.

    Instead it should be said that a deceptive shot is always deceptive, but depending on the quality of the execution and the wares of the receiver, it will only deceive some of the time.
     
  18. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Deception is like beauty (and beauty is like deception!). They both exist in the eye of the beholder. ;)

    Of course, we also need to talk about "deceptive shots" as a way to refer to inherent qualities of the shot itself -- effectively shorthand for, "this shot has good potential to deceive an opponent".

    The terminology isn't entirely satisfactory.


    Precisely! Ironic how the beginner can end up doing better here than the intermediate player.
     
  19. Stratlover

    Stratlover Regular Member

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    In my book, there are 3 types of deception: hold, double action, and same motion. They each deceive using different aspects of anticipation. The most commonly used ones are holding and same motion. Usually same motion will be used on overhead shots, whereas holding will be used for front and midcourt shots. Let me give you some examples:


    Same Motion/Preparation: Every overhead stroke should be used with similar preparation and racket head speed. The more similar these two things are, the more deceptive all of your overhead strokes will become.

    That means that a stop drop that actually stops the racket head will not be as deceptive as a stop drop that continues the racket head motion and slices across the shuttle. Also, fast drops should be played with the same racket head speed as a half smash, only altering the angle slightly.

    This type of deception disturbs your opponent's ability to anticipate your shot based on your hitting motion (i.e. reading your shot's direction and pace from your racket face, racket speed, body preparation). It does not disturb your opponent's ability to read the timing of your shot.

    You should be using similar preparation on all of your shots, but it is much harder to have the same racket head speed in the front/midcourt (lift vs netshot), although you can strive to keep your motions as short as possible to give your opponent less movement to read.



    Holding: Every front and midcourt shot should begin by showing a block or netshot (most commonly) or a lift or drive (less commonly). Then, you hold the shot and wait for your opponent to move towards the direction you show and hit the opposite.

    Examples of holding with soft shots in the front court would be the classic hold and flick where you show a netshot and then hit a flat lift to the rearcourt, cross court netshots would be holding a netshot and then crossing, and one of lee chong wei's favorites, showing a cross net and flicking straight to the rearcourt.

    Examples of holding fast shots would be showing a powerful midcourt drive and then cutting underneath the shuttle for a block (used in doubles), showing a netkill and just touching the shuttle for a netshot, and showing a high lift and hitting softly for a tight netshot (used rarely in singles). These deceptions involve drawing the racket back from the point of contact and slowing it down, which results in a less accurate shot, which is why they are used less often. Taufik likes to use this one from the midcourt where he shows a forehand push/drive and then flicks a fast lift crosscourt.

    The last type of holding is sort of a double action, in that it involves drawing back the racket to show a lift after holding a soft shot. The most common example of this one is showing a net shot, drawing back the racket in an obvious way and then hitting a netshot (the actual netshot does not have to be straight). Lin Dan likes to use this one a lot, especially as an inside out backhand return of serve.

    Holding results in disturbing your opponent's ability to read the timing of your shot, and the goal is to make them move before you have hit the shuttle allowing you to read their movement and hit in the other direction.



    Double Action: The last type of deception involves using multiple forward movements of the racket head in order to fool your opponent into moving at both the wrong time and the wrong direction. This is the most advanced type of deception and it is difficult to execute properly. However, if done correctly, it can lead to spectacular results.

    The most common example I can think of right now is Peter Gade's lift from the front/midcourt where he holds the shuttle, flicks his racket cross to show a cross net, and then actually flicks the shuttle into the rearcourt, hitting a flat lift. He can do this on both sides. I've also seen KKK do a double action from the midcourt that fakes a drive and then hits a block, but I've never seen it actually work... LYD also does a double action from the front court, where he fake flicks a straight drive on his backhand side and hits a flat cross lift. This one I have seen work a few times, but never as an outright winner.



    Bear in mind that unless your opponent is way below your skill level your deceptions will not work if you use them over and over again. You should usually mix hitting as fast and early as possible with holding in order to keep your opponent guessing. This way, you'll make him late for your normal fast shots and too early for your deceptive shots, allowing you to deceive him. If you constantly hold your shots, your opponent will eventually learn to not move and you will just be contacting the shuttle lower every time without any benefits.
     
    #19 Stratlover, May 10, 2013
    Last edited: May 10, 2013
  20. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    forehand side chasing in after a smash? very common technique.
     

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