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Hit the shuttle early versus delay and deception

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by BernieR, May 9, 2013.

  1. Stratlover

    Stratlover Regular Member

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    More like peter gade's double action lift without the double action and only a hold, like this at 17:07

    [video=youtube;xw7QOjLvK0U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw7QOjLvK0U[/video]
     
  2. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yeah, LCW likes doing that in the past year... but so far I don't see his opponents being deceived much. :p
     
  3. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    pretty sure there is double action there having seen better footage of him play that shot elsewhere
     
  4. Stratlover

    Stratlover Regular Member

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    He usually does it without double action and just a hold. You can see from the video that there is no forward action of the racket head until he hits the lift. The reason why it works on a lot of opponents is because he also likes to hit a cross drop from that low position which tends to make his opponents lean forward when he's holding his backhand down low. It usually doesn't work against LD and other top players but you can see it working there against Tian Houwei, making him take a late backhand clear and setting up the smash opportunity. If I were his coach though, I would tell him to hit both his cross drop and this deceptive lift higher in order to make it more threatening and effective, even if his opponent is able to read it. He tends to wait a little too long when doing his holds, as opposed to the chinese players who tend to do simpler, shorter deceptions that are less risky.
     
  5. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    no you can't - the video is no clear enough.
     
  6. kaki!

    kaki! Regular Member

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  7. Jacob mm

    Jacob mm Regular Member

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  8. BernieR

    BernieR Regular Member

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    This has been a fantastically useful discussion for me, my understanding has taken a big leap forward. Thanks everybody!
     
  9. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    This thread has renewed my interest in deception. Some of you had comments on taking the shot early, and some comments how LCW had taken his shot too low.

    You may want to check out this video clip:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1sOLxvQow

    At 3:00, Peter Gade explained, in clear English, how one trick shot works. That shot looks like the same one used by LCW deceiving Tian in Australian Open 2013. He emphasized that the shot should be taken as late and as low as possible to maximize deception.
     
  10. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    He says hold as long as possible, not take as late/low as possible. He's saying the the first motion in a double-action shot should not be noticeably earlier than if you were going to play the first motion as a bona fide shot.
     
    #30 amleto, May 11, 2013
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
  11. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Can you please explain the fine difference between "hold as long as possible" vs. "taken as late and as low as possible"? The contact point apparently is lower, knee height. He also "seemed to say", don't take it close to net height, even though he arrived early and could do so.
     
  12. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    You can hold the shuttle until the shuttle gets to where your racket hold is. You cannot hold the shuttle past this point.

    You can of course 'take' ie hit the shuttle at any time up to when it hits the floor.

    I didn't hear anything like that. When does he say/imply that?
     
    #32 amleto, May 11, 2013
    Last edited: May 11, 2013
  13. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Agree with amleto.

    Deceptive shots can only be done when the opponent has returned a poor shot that allows you to get to the shuttle early enough without footwork or time pressure.

    Only then do you have the time and luxury to address the shuttle early to show one direction and then a split second later to hit in another direction.

    However, for the deception to work, your opponent has to not only have time to read your first motion but also time to react to it. If your first action is too early or too short, he won`t be fooled. And for the second action to work, it has to be done not before, but immediately after you sense that he has reacted to the first motion.

    So, back to Gade`s advice, "hold as long as possible" is to allow enough time for the opponent to read and react to the first motion. And the moment you detect that he has reacted, that's when it is possible to perform the second motion. That is not the same as waiting to "take it as late and low as possible", which would mean taking it just millimetres off the ground?! :p
     
  14. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Of course, that's my subjective interpretation of what he said for this very particular trick shot.

    At about 3:18, he explained if you hit the shuttle at the higher point, which based on his position he actually could take it there, it won't work; no one would believe you.

    So he chose a lower hitting position. And he did say "holding the shot as long as possible", and he didn't say exactly "taking it as low as possible". Nevertheless, he intentionally took the shot lower than he could. While he held the shot, that shot was losing altitude.

    I realize my interpretation is not precise. Can someone then explain, other than holding it for as long as possible, is there any significance in taking that shot lower rather than higher? I hope you can refer your answer to this particular trick shot in this particular video.
     
  15. malinosega

    malinosega Regular Member

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    First i need to be clear about the term 'holding'. It means u have to be comfortably close to the shuttle and the shuttle is still on net height. It s impossible to do trick shot if u r still reaching for shuttle.

    For doing the deception u have to know ur most comfortable point of contact for both fake and real shot. Like what Gade was doing (net to lift), his contact point for net is about shoulder height, and based on shuttle trajectory it will drop to his second option's contact point which is lift (about waist line). Therefore he has two option and he took the second to deceive the opponent. He wont be able to do that if the shuttle's trajectory is flat, push for example.

    Other example would be http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ktP_S838Sxk which i believe the video talked firstly in this post. Taufik's deception on 15:36 was net to crosscourt push. His net contact point is about shoulder height too and he only hold a bit till the shuttle comes to his second contact piont to push, unlike Gade because he was doing net to lift.

    so imo it is not holding as long as possible or take higher and lower. It s the difference between your two or more comfortable shot you able to do on particular situation. And again, depending on shuttle's trajectory. Hope this helps.
     
  16. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Raymond, you are just misunderstanding what gade said. He said if he did the first motion too early, no one will believe it - because the shuttle is too far away. That means he does NOT have the option of playing it (that much) earlier as you are saying.



    Edit, well, he could do the first motion earlier, but you have to change it to make it look like you will actually hit the bird. If you do this as early as possible then there is no hold! That takes away a whole level of deception.
     
    #36 amleto, May 12, 2013
    Last edited: May 12, 2013
  17. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Disagreee with this fundamentally. The double action deception works on showing a fake then as quickly as possible sending the shuttle elsewhere. It does not work based on where it is comfortable for you to do shots.

    Additionally, Gade's hold position is no where close to net/shoulder high for the b/h deception shot that I think we're talking about!
    (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HA1sOLxvQow)
     
  18. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I don't see no double motion. He stuck his racket to a low position and kept it there, until the moment he hit it. Am I the only one that saw this?

    Part of the deception is the fact that there's no big back swing. Secondly, his racket head is position to the left side of the oncoming shuttle, making it look like a cross-court shot. Instead, he played a straight shot, without any apparent effort to generate power, yet it's a straight flick.
     
    #38 raymond, May 12, 2013
    Last edited: May 12, 2013
  19. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    A similar one by Lin Dan

    Here's another similar one by Lin Dan. The differences here are: 1. He used set up in the previous few shots, it appeared he moved his opponent left and right alternately with net lift, then he played this fake that looked to be part of the pattern. 2. He took the shot earlier, much closer to net top.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfxc0dxTKaY&list=PL0CE1C89EFE127EFC&index=9
     
  20. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Yet another one by Lin Dan

    This is another one by Lin Dan:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aDWoBR2Wcs&list=PL0CE1C89EFE127EFC&index=13

    It worked because his opponent didn't expect him to be able to generate so much power and angle from the position so close to his body. Here, like the one by Gade earlier, Lin Dan didn't take the shot early, nor did he take it the highest point. You can see he was already in position, though he chose to let the shuttle drop, and get closer to his body.

    Here's a different one (we'd changed topic, back to OP's thread now :D):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0bYOGnqUd4&list=PL0CE1C89EFE127EFC&index=30

    @0:20, you can see slow motion. As LJB explained (he had his own video on this), this is a 3-level deception. First hold, as though a net shot is to be played, then withdraw the racket as though a flick is to be played, then a cross-net.
     

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