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How many gold medals will China win in Rio?

Discussion in 'Olympics 2016 - RIO' started by kwun, Nov 26, 2015.

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How many gold medals will China win in Rio

  1. 5 Gold Medals

    2.9%
  2. 4 Gold Medals

    8.8%
  3. 3 Gold Medals

    35.3%
  4. 2 Gold Medals

    33.8%
  5. 1 Gold Medals

    10.3%
  6. 0 Gold Medals

    8.8%
  1. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    You are correct, LYB did openly admitted that....it has been a long time ago, this topic has not been discussed since, honestly a lot of the details I have forgotten. I remember this match fixing because that was the time when I joined BC and this was a hot topic.
     
  2. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Specifically, we're talking about LCW not being to beat Lin Dan in the final because he was stretched thin by his other CHN opponents as if the two or three CHN opponents could work as a team or colluded against him.

    I say, such an argument is putting down LCW and doing him a disservice. How the CHN players could work together as a team against LCW in any one tournament baffles me when the matches are all one-on-one affairs. Can I argue that all the non-CHN players are helping LCW by ganging up against the CHN players, would you buy that? Was it Taufik who hinted something to that effect once? I vaguely remember a couple non-CHN WS players saying they are most happy to beat any of the CHN WS by going all out.

    It's a well-known fact and we often hear of remarkable examples of athletes, particularly Olympians who beat the odds, overcome constraints whether it's fatigue or even minor injuries, not to mention physical limitations, to rise above themselves and achieved amazing feats. Are you saying LCW is definitely not one of them, he's too ordinary or weak for it on the one or two occasions where he faced seemingly insurmountable obstacles, let alone other instances when the situation was fair or favourable to him ? No wonder LCW was protesting loudly the moment he learnt of Lin Dan's wild card in WC'13.

    Consider the following concrete examples to disabuse yourselves:

    1) How did LCW at the China Open this year overcome Chen Long and Lin Dan in the penultimate and final rounds? And that at the ripe old age of 33 when some of you believe he couldn't do it at a younger age, conspiracy theory aside?

    2) At the WC'13, Lin Dan had to beat none other than Chen Long in the quarters before besting LCW in the final who actually had the spent Du Pengyu in the semis to deal with whom, I repeat, was the only player subject to 4 previous rounds of long, grueling three-setters;

    3) At the WC'11, it was Peter Gade whose caliber we are fully aware of that pushed Lin Dan hard in three hard-fought sets in the semis while LCW had an easier time with Nguyen Tien Minh (CMIIW) in the other semi before the clash of the titans that eventually went Lin Dan's way for his 4th WC crown;

    4) Even at the London'12 Olympics, both Lin Dan and LCW were not troubled by their respective semifinal opponents, Lee Hyun Il and Chen Long respectively,i.e. neither finalists were disadvantaged in any way (going by the conspiracy theory),yet, again, Lin Dan came out on top for his second Olympic gold.

    I think 4 examples should suffice, and there are several more cases applying to non-major championships if you care to do your homework. Clearly, those few cases that seem to corroborate the collusion argument can be attributed more to coincidence than intention. I mean , which coach, CHN or otherwise, wouldn't instruct their charges to do their utmost to beat Lin Dan or LCW regardless who the final opponent may be.

    Lastly, let me put it to you that the feeble attempt to discredit Lin Dan's many well-deserved victories over LCW is an exercise in futility, on thin ice, and can actually backfire in ending up disparaging LCW as Lin Dan's most worthy and greatest rival. Allow me to round it up with the oft repeated sigh, if only LCW was born in a different era from Lin Dan's.
     
  3. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    As for LYB's open admission in those cases applying to WS in past Olympics and so-called team orders to enable certain WS or MS players to qualify for the Olympics in compliance with the stringent quota restrictions of BWF/IOC that apparently targeted CHN, I've only this to say - Li Yongbo is hated not so much for doing it but for getting it right time and again.

    In other words, those critics who come down hard on LYB are motivated not so much by sympathy for the sacrificial lambs or victims in the name of national glory but more because LYB has the uncanny ability, acumen or judgement to make the right but difficult and, to a certain extent, unpopular decisions.

    Had he screwed up and ended up with the results opposite to what he had hoped for, you can be dead sure he will be lambasted and heaped on with brickbats from everywhere and be made to bear the dire consequences himself. I can imagine those very same critics, the anti-CHN fans and CHN-haters, gleefully rubbing it in,saying, thank you very much, Li Yongbo, or, I sympathize with and support you, LYB, keep it up, even though it'd spell the end of him.

    At this moment, I'd rather Li Yongbo quit while the going's good.It'd have been best he retired after CHN's clean sweep in London 2012 under his helm and at the height of his lifetime achievements. Now that he held on until at least the Rio Olympics, I'm not too sure if he would go out with a bang instead of a whimper. I won't be surprised what happens at Rio might decide his fate, for better or for worse.
     
  4. Sundis

    Sundis Regular Member

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    Hello, I will reply to your post.

    In WC 2013 the Schedule on SF day used one Court and had 10 matches in a row. LD vs NTM was played as match 3 and LCW vs DPY as match 9 http://bwf.tournamentsoftware.com/s...4CD385-F662-4AF4-98EB-6F5383FB346A&d=20130810
    The host nation can have influence on the scheduling of matches.

    Also one of my friends who at that tournament was watching the LD vs CL QF from close to court admitted to me that he/she strongly believes the mach was fixed and gifted to LD by CL.
     
  5. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Who is he/she and in what capacity are they speaking? BWF official, someone with inside scoop or heard from reliable sources (the horse's mouth, where and who?). Still, whatever, that one incident doesn't invalidate my point as there are many other examples available to support my case.

    At that WC, nobody is sure, LYB included, that Lin Dan who just came back from a one-year hiatus, clearly out of tournament practice, is capable of beating LCW. More telling is Chen Long in 2013 had beaten LCW twice on the two occasions they met, at the All England and the Denmark Open, as well as winning the one before and after, namely HK Open in Nov 2012 and KOR Open in Jan 2014, that is four straight wins for Chen Long over LCW.
     
  6. Sundis

    Sundis Regular Member

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    At the time BWF person, no linejudge or something like that. Believes so after watching the match. But someone believing a match was fixed personally cannot do anything about it without objective proof ofcourse.
     
  7. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Justin I don't know why you assume the intention of the different posters. Facts are facts and you should keep to it, intentions of others are beyond your reach.
    Regarding the facts you mentioned, first of all you put them in a context that was absent. We were discussing the goals of DPY, CJ and CL when they had the chance to meet LCW in the semis, not of discrediting LD of anything. I would see in your reaction a bit of paranoia.
    For those goals of the mentioned players, if they had them in mind it does not mean that it worked. For example CL could not do anything against LCW in the semis of OLY in 2012.
    But CJ or DPY had an impact during WC and AG. And that is to recognise merit to those two players who could at times tire-out any players by their fantastic defence.
     
  8. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    First of all, you don't cherry pick the cases you like and interpret them to suit your beliefs. Also, everyone is entitled to his own opinions but not to his own facts.

    Next, I simply can't make sense of what you're trying to say here - "Regarding the facts you mentioned, first of all you put them in a context that was absent." I didn't create any context, but put them in perspective without being judgemental or speculating on what I thought happened, instead based my views on evidence and reasoning as objectively as possible.

    As for the goals of DPY, CJ and CL when they had the chance to meet LCW, they are none other than to beat him, whether in the process they managed to tire out LCW or not is another matter, LYB's instruction or order notwithstanding, for LCW might well defeat the CHN players convincingly in two straight sets without expending too much effort or time. Isn't that what every player, CHN or otherwise, is expected to do no matter who the opponent is, their own strategy may influence their decision at times. But it's not as if LYB can simply order his players to tire out LCW and consider it done, then he should order them to beat LCW instead - I can't imagine what magical powers LYB had over his players that other non-CHN coaches don't have. Which MA would not scramble for such a Head Coach with special , almost supernatural, abilities ?!

    That CJ (or CL ?) or DPY (or CL?) had an impact during the WC and the AG wqas. to me, more coincidental or intentional, if you like, whether LYB gave the order or not is incidental, he's merely doing what every coach is supposed to do anyway. in fact, I recall that at the WC'11, Chen Jin was unable to trouble LCW at all, same for Chen Long at the London OG, whereas the spent Du Pengyu was surprisingly able to push LCW hard going the full distance at the WC'13.

    About your last sentence - And that is to recognise merit to those two players who could at times tire-out (sic) any players by their fantastic defence. - I couldn't agree with you more. Where's the bit of paranoia ? You're being presumptuous, engaging in robust debate is not a sign of paranoia. Well, no matter.
     
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  9. Nine Tailed Fox

    Nine Tailed Fox Regular Member

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    True....If WZM folds over in front of LCW in two straight games....'.LCW the best' 'the one man army ' 'he is toying with him'

    And if CL,DPY,CJ managed to make it a hard fought contest----'It's China against LCW', ' LD's bodyguards '

    I mean what is their purpose of playing for their country if they are not troubling/defeating their opponents?

    'Tiring him out for Lin Dan' ? Why LD, Why not themselve? They could have won those matches too if LCW was feeling too tired.
     
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  10. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    By "context", I meant our discussion, not the context of the matches. We were discussing the probable road to the final for LCW and LD, where LD will have (perhaps and hopefully) both CL and LCW to meet, a kind of reversal of most of the time where it is LCW that had China shuttler number 2 in the semis.
    As for the game plan of CJ and others while meeting LCW in different semis, I agree it is a question of interpretation. It is only my opinion that one of their goal was to make LCW run, to help their teammate in the final the day after.
    I mentioned the fact that whatever their intention, they are not always able to tired out LCW, as when LCW is agressive, even good defences are sometimes not enough. So I agree with you on that.
    I think CJ pushed LCW into a long three games match in the semis of 2010 AG, in Guangzhou.
     
  11. badlove

    badlove Regular Member

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    Why only LCW, like he's the only one to defeat? There were many other great players from other countries in LD's era like TH, PG, LHI, SDK, SS (INA), SS (JPN), PSH, just on top of my head and many other honorable mentions.
     
  12. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Well from 2011, it was really a contest between those two
     
  13. badlove

    badlove Regular Member

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    They both had to defeat all the other RoW players on their way to the championship. Even if when LCW's playing the Chinese through to final, LD had to fought the RoWs not a match less and everyone's eager to defeat him.
     
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  14. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    What's the relation to what was being said?
     
  15. badlove

    badlove Regular Member

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    I was referring to the previous discussion that they're talking as if LCW was the only one to defeat, but in reality there were many great players not from China that LD had to defeat en route all the championships in the span of his career. They all fought their everything and definitely nobody is giving away anything without a hard fought match.
     
  16. renbo

    renbo Regular Member

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    Yes that's true, I remember an interview LD gave where he was complaining of the media too much focusing on his rivalry with LCW, he said there are other serious players, like LHI for example. At this tourney (I forgot which one) LCW was absent and some media assumed LD would take the title easily. (Which he did I think, but anyway.)
     
  17. abedeng

    abedeng Regular Member

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    I used to think it would be 5 of 5 Golds for China - China being very good at peaking at the major events.

    But looking at the last 3 World Championships, now I would be surprised if they win more than 3 as their women are no longer invincible. For the first time, Chinese men will have better chances then their women.
     
  18. nilesh123

    nilesh123 Regular Member

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    Does that mean u r suggesting 2 golds for men and one from women side(?)!
    No chance MD is out of contention and even LD/CL aren't looking as good as LCW (lately). If CHN is to win 3 it must be 2:1 for Women side
     
  19. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    For me, I've written off CHN MD, no change till now.

    In CHN WD, they aren't sending their best two pairs,only one, and that where Yu Yang is no longer in her prime,her fitness level is suspect, and the Luo twin sisters are just missing that little extra to consistently take on the best in the world.

    Even in XD, apart from the formidable Zhang Nan/Zhao Yunlei where ZN has to do double duty, the other 'old' XD pair of Xu Chen/Ma Jin isn't a sure bet, not on the same level as ZN/ZYL.

    For CHN's gold prospects, I ranked their chances in the following order:
    1) MS, either Lin Dan, the top pick, or Chen Long albeit I'd rate LCW higher than CL but lower than LD, of course;
    2) WS, Li Xuerui is the one, assuming her stamina and mental toughness are up to it, Wang Yihan too unpredictable;
    3) XD, Zhang Nan/Zhao Yunlei higher than Xu Chen/Ma Jin, obviously;
    4) WD, Tang Yuanting/Yu Yang, assuming YY improved on her stamina, the Luo twins at most a bronze;
    5) MD, not much hope, less than 50%, at most 40%.

    For Zhang Nan to do double at Rio is a concern. Mind you, we're talking about delivering golds in both disciplines, nothing less, the more so when CHN MD has been CHN's weakest link since after LOG'12 Cai Yun/Fu Haifeng was never the same again and there aren't any other pairs able to step into their shoes.

    Yes, I voted four golds for China, but now I should say, three is more realistic.
     
  20. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    I don't know why you'd write off the Chinese MD. I think most considered rankings will have the Indonesians, Koreans and Chinese dominating the podium. With the Koreans showing nervousness at previous occasions, and the Indonesians unable to maintain their supremacy consistently, there's plenty of opportunity there.
     

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