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Indonesia Juniors !!

Discussion in 'Indonesia Professional Players' started by fathonezic, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. stanleyfm

    stanleyfm Regular Member

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    Indonesia has some talent at WD in Apriani Rahayu (19), Agatha Imanuela (17) and Siti Ramadhani (16).

    Do you think to pair them up with Greysia Polii, Nitya and Liliyana may help their growth and
    could be a better decision for far future instead of focusing 1-2 years result from now (by keeping the current pairs)?
     
  2. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    Yes, I believe they should start doing GP level at 16 or 17 years of age, to gain experience and confidence as well, if they do well there. Just like Goh Jin Wei who is currently doing very well already at senior stage.

    Sure! I wholeheartedly agree, as soon as they enter senior stage it would be great if they are immediately paired with their seniors. I believe it may increase their confidence and maturity, but question is, we currently lack of a proper WD senior who can be mentors except for Greys.. WD seniors aren't doing very well themselves to be able to mentor the girls. And Butet will retire after Asian Games, I don't think she'll stay longer to play with the juniors.
     
  3. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    And speaking of tournaments...
    Congratulations to our juniors who are going strong in this week's Malaysia Juniors!

    Boy's Singles title is at our hands as 4 of the semifinalists are all from Indonesia!
    Mixed Doubles also have 3 Indonesian semifinalists.
    Boy's Doubles: 3 Indonesian semifinalists, once again
    Girl's Singles: Aurum and Asty will face off during semifinal, thus guarantee one Indonesian spot at the final
    Girl's Doubles: Sadly Lala/Fadia lost their QF, and only Jauza/Ribka is through to Semifinal



     
    #503 titionthewall, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  4. stanleyfm

    stanleyfm Regular Member

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    I personally think that we just have to wholeheartedly let go our best WD (Nitya/Greys)
    They are also reaching the end of their peak, while waiting for Nitya to come back most probably also not going to bring many outcomes anymore; maybe 1/2 SS title but that's it.

    But that may not be good for Nitya psychologically, since she must have gone through the rehabilitation in order to get to the top (or top 10, in this case). So yeah, maybe that will be best to let them play again till Asian Games, and split them after that; in scenario that they also already see that it is not their time anymore. My thought is for Nitya and Greys for each to form pair with Agatha or Siti (I don't know whose the front and back player).

    Will Butet really retire after Asian Games? I was just hoping that she pair with Apriani as she seems to be a good back player.
    Pairing with Butet will be an enourmous experience and lots of thing to be gained. Maybe Butet can still spend some time with her after Asian Games, or even since before (playing both WD and XD again), for about 2 years? Don't know whether she will support the idea though
     
  5. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    I personally agree that we should let Grey/Nit go. Realistically, going with both of them as a pair isn't really prospective for Tokyo 2020 anyway. There are many possibilities but perhaps the best thing is to for each of them pair and mentor the younger girls.

    But again... Indonesia will always have tremendous junior talents, but many of them wither during senior stage. Rather than focusing on who will pair whom, I am more worried about the system in PBSI. Edi, Gloria, Jojo, Ginting and many others shined during their junior stage but their current levels are just not what we expected. The problem must be something bigger than just talent or pairs.

    I am not sure either, actually. Just hearing from here and there that she's saving her last for Asian Games. Afterwards, I don't know. I heard some speculations about her becoming a coach after retiring, but no confirmation about it.

    But yeah, Butet is super good in mentoring. Tontowi really matured under her guidance. Unfortunately I don't think the idea of Butet forming entirely new partnership with junior player is very realistic (all ppl talk about in badminton fanbase accounts is Butet's impending retirement).

    I hope even if she retires eventually, she'll stay as coach and not leave Indonesian badminton entirely. She seems to have what it takes to coaching and mentoring players.
     
  6. Sundis

    Sundis Regular Member

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    Havent seen Ihsan play for ages, what happened to him?
     
  7. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    Ihsan had a tremendous run during men's team championship during SEA Games, always won his matches (he was the MS 2 after Jonatan). He played at the final third match during the final against Malaysia's Lee Zii Jia and won, thereby ensuring Indonesia gold medal for the Men's Team.

    Sadly during Men's Singles event, he got injured during semifinal match, and got bronze medal.
    He then participates at this week's Vietnam GP, but his injury hasn't healed yet, so he retired during R2 match.
     
  8. stanleyfm

    stanleyfm Regular Member

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    Wrong attachment
    See next post below
     

    Attached Files:

    #508 stanleyfm, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
  9. stanleyfm

    stanleyfm Regular Member

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    About this, I did small research few weeks ago on the percentage of successful junior player alumni at the senior stage based from Asian and World Junior Championships. Counting the number of player (per person) achieving gold and reaching semifinal (only for World) since 2006 till 2015, and compare it to their actual achievement in the senior (I counted them as successfull when they spend about 0.5-1 years in the 15 world ranking). Then I compare it with other countries which has considerable number of sample (read: players).

    The result is very interesting.

    Indonesia is at the 2nd/3rd lowest percentage of successfullness based from gold medal from asia (40% asia, 50% world). 1st is Malaysia (33% and 0%), no wonder looking at their performance nowadays.

    India and Japan both have 100% for Asia and World Championships (Nozomi, Akane, Saina etc.). You can say that Japan is very efficient in their process, and most probably all of the mechanisms are well operated such that they create quite some number of talent (to be sent to the junior event) but also they are high quality talent which are ready to be maturised to the senior level (the semifinalist data also shows high percentage: 74%).

    China has quite medium percentage level, but the number of participants and winners is also very high. The number of successful player at the senior level are also high. At this condition, who cares about percentage.

    The number is also low when the semifinalist are included (Indonesia 34%). Indonesia, for sure has problem in maturing the young talent.

    For India, seems likely they also got similar issue with Indonesia about the transition from junior senior, if it is looked at the semifinalist data. However, the current coaches somehow are good enough to bring the quality of the player up (since Mulyo Handoyo joined, at least). The 100% gold winner data show that they still have quite good transition. Most likely, the sample are just not enough to break the perfect score. Otherwise, it won't be 100%.

    Taiwan and Thailand showed worst than Indonesia, but yes, they are often 1 tier below from us anyway. However, the interesting high number from Thailand's semifinalist (62%) but low number of gold medal winner, shows that they don't have huge talent, but they have very good maturisation program to make these finalists come to the top of the senior level.

    upload_2017-9-8_0-35-46.png
    upload_2017-9-8_0-35-33.png
    upload_2017-9-8_0-35-23.png

    note: the left column is the number of the player at the junior championships, the right column is the number who succeds in senior level


    Interestingly, Indonesia has more similarities with South Korea (55% asia, 45% world, 33% world semifinalist). The difference is the actual ratio of the semifinalist/gold winner. Indonesia has the worst value (11%). It just shows that basically, the talent pool itself don't contain much 'actual prodigy', even though many are talented. Or if we say that all of the youngsters are actually prodigy, then the problem is already at the junior level training such that we are not able to convert such many number of talented youngster to be a winner.


    upload_2017-9-8_0-35-0.png

    Indonesia has problems both at the junior training, and also at improving them further to the senior level.
     
    #509 stanleyfm, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
    duchoainguyen and titionthewall like this.
  10. Master

    Master Regular Member

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    Butet already stated for several times that she will not playing any WD anymore because of the stamina for WD is needed to be higher than playing XD.

    The same reason delivered by Vita Marissa in her last performance in XD.
     
  11. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    Congratulations and good luck to our juniors who will face the Final of Malaysia International Junior Open tomorrow! So proud to see all Indonesian final at 3 events (BS, BD, XD).

    Hopefully tomorrow will bring the best possible results.

     
  12. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    Thank you for the amazing analysis @stanleyfm. It highly suggests there is something definitely wrong in the senior training system in PBSI.

    I am personally sad about the talent and youth wasted of our young potential athletes.
     
  13. Master

    Master Regular Member

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    It's not all about wrong training system in senior team. There were some other obstacles that beyond the capability of the systems.

    The force majors reason mostly was the severe injury experienced by juniors while they entering first/second year in their senior training.
    Players like Shesar Hiren, Bellaetrix Manuputty, Setyana Mapasa, Simon Santoso, and the youngest injured players Elisabeth P. (silver medalist at World Junior Championships) were some examples of that condition.
    The others is back again into each players themselves, how each individual put their determination on their performances.

    With low determination, no matter how hard the traning was done and how creative the system made, it will goes like gone in the wind. No matter how good the coach approaching and giving motivation, all that things coming back to the players.
     
  14. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    But how high is the percentage of young players having severe injury at the early stage of their career? Perhaps for players you mentioned above, yes, it might've played major role on how they are not developing into champions.

    But for others? Take example Edi Subaktiar, XD players who were BD and XD gold medalist in AJC and WJC 2012, respectively or countless WD and XD players such as Melati, Alfian, Tiara, Suci etc who were medalists at previous WJC and AJC. They are still playing, not currently or previously having earth-shattering injury but somehow do not reach more than R2 in SS/SSP and have no titles under their name.

    And most injuries can be healed, with good health system within the association. I know that they are partnered with Department of Sports Medicine of University of Indonesia, nation's best sports doctor are all there.

    I believe this is kind of a multifactorial problem, could be players' mentality not strong enough (could be fixed with good sport psychologists), coaching system not good enough (confirmed for WS, which until now do not have any head coach since forever), health system not good enough and so forth. But it all can be narrowed down to chronic problem of bad management of PBSI training system.
     
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  15. Master

    Master Regular Member

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    It's unexpected and you couldn't avoid it somehow.

    Edi Subaktiar is going to the last reason, his determination is very low. He doesn't give so much effort into badminton IMO. His personality become his problem. Some players have been already mention that he is a cranky man, doesn't want to be blamed at any reason, childish characters.

    Healed injury doesn't make the condition 100%, at least it's could be counted by fingers any injured player that managed doing their coming back stronger than before they got injury (95% will stuck at certain points or down hill progress after injury be healed). You could notice the other countries have that problem as well. Xue Song, Bae Yeon Ju, Goh Liu Ying, Kim Sa Rang are some example of player with career's ended injury. Carsten Mogensen's magic recovery is other story since it's not real physical injury but more of aneurysm (anomaly in brain vascular). Sayaka Takahashi, Sayaka Sato, Saina Nehwal are some example of players who managed to recover their performances but still it's harder than we expected and it will need longer period to be back on their best quality while ages running fast.

    And more natural instinct is your brain will dictated your motor neuron "Hey don't do it like you do when your body got injured! So, more be careful by now". It's direct under brain awareness system planted in the injured person. They will struggle with themselves after the hurtful injury happen unto their body part. It will give a new obstacle to moved freely in court. Sometime the steps will stop by no reason without the players realize

    Sport psychologist and sport science implementation will give positives outcome. But I believes even the organization reconstructed with whole new system and members, it would give a little difference. The players themselves will play the most important role to change everything progressively. If we compare why Chen Long still under the shadow of Lin Dan? Both of them facing and experiencing the same system every time. The same coach and the same other factor except inside their body and the way of thinking IMO.
     
  16. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    What I meant by how high the percentage is, literally what the percentage number of severely injured players at young age is.
     
  17. Master

    Master Regular Member

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    It may give a differ rate by ages.

    You could read some of them here:
    1. Badminton-_J_sports_Med_Phys_Fitness.pdf
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235885246_Badminton_injuries_in_youth_competitive_players

    2. A Retrospective Review from 2006 to 2011 of Lower Extremity Injuries
    http://www.mdpi.com/2075-4663/3/2/77/pdf
    The age-bands frequently injured were 10–19 (22%), 40–49 (22%), 30–39 (14%) and. 50–59 (13%) years.

    3. Catastrophic Injuries in Sports and Recreation: Causes and Prevention | Read here
    By ages: <11 (4.8 %), 11-20 (61.9 %), 21-30 (9.6 %), 31-40 (14.3 %), 41-50 (9.5 %).
     
  18. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    Huge congratulations to our spirited juniors who managed to bag FOUR Malaysia International Junior Open titles, and 4 runner-ups!







    Looking at these results I am really looking forward to this year's World Junior Championship that will be held in Yogyakarta, Indonesia. If any of you have the time and resources, you should definitely come and watch it live. Yogyakarta is also a beautiful city :)
     
  19. ebcd

    ebcd Regular Member

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    That really is a nice, no, great results
    Congrats to INA Juniors :)

    Any info on when and where it will be held? Or any website?

    #Tapatalk
     
  20. titionthewall

    titionthewall Regular Member

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    It is going to be held from 9th to 22nd October 2017 at Amongrogo Sport Center (GOR Amongrogo), Yogyakarta.
    Unfortunately there is no official website as far as I know.
     
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