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International matches are getting longer

Discussion in 'General Forum' started by Cheung, Nov 15, 2013.

  1. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Match length times are getting longer and longer. In fact probably not so different from when the old scoring system was in place.

    Should the scoring system have been changed at all ?
     
  2. Fidget

    Fidget Regular Member

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    A premise has been stated that matches are lengthening. And that they are approaching the duration of pre-rally point scoring days.

    But before all the 'solutions' start pouring in, I'd like to know if the premise is true for most matches in a given tournament? Or is this an impression from a sampling of the marquis finals matches that we all watch?

    It is bad for spectators if each match is being dragged out by numerous towel breaks and interminable player perigrinations around the court after each point. But fans forgive such delays if the match is a dramatic exciting final between their heroes .

    So, is it a real problem? (I am not refuting, only asking for info)

    If so, the answer surely is to support the umpires in their efforts to maintain pace. I'd hate to see a stopwatch to time player's delays, but something like that may have to be instituted if time is throwing off schedules and boring the fans.
     
  3. |_Footwork_|

    |_Footwork_| Regular Member

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    Well, you should construct the correct counterfactual:
    How long would the matches nowadays be, if the scoring system was still the old one?
     
  4. Dimo

    Dimo Regular Member

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    The old system with only scoring on serve seemed flawed to me as there is no significant advantage in serving as there is in tennis, for instance. The rally points scoring system can seem a bit lengthy at 21 points per game but it's better than what we had before in my view. I think matches of 5 sets to 11 points were tried at one time to create more critical periods during play but it wasn't adopted.

    I've noticed in matches over the past two years that some players take liberties with time out and create excessive delays between points but I don't personally see it as a problem.
     
  5. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    /takes mental note of new word learned for the day.
     
  6. latecomer

    latecomer Regular Member

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    Football match-2 hours. Hockey-3 hours. American Football-3 hours. Tennis-3 hours matches are common, sometimes have to finish next day. Cricket-days. Table tennis-don't know,rarely watch cause always CHN VS CHN. If you want to compare in match to match basic, it is not long at all. Badminton tournament at this moment is very different from other spectator sports. Until badminton goes mainstream, at that time economic will dictate what the format will be.
     
  7. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    You know just as I made my post about shuttle speeds, I saw your thread. Take a look at what I had to say about longer matches, particularly the most recent one between LYD/YYS and Endo/Hayakawa at the China Open.

    I think time wasting has been more common the last few years but the shuttle speeds have definitely slowed dramatically in the last few months.
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Game too fast, too slow, too long, too short, too many rallies, not enough rallies.

    Dang... not only are the poor pro players earning a pittance, but they have to put up with commentators, spectators, and at home youtubers complaining of this? ;)
     
  9. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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  10. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    All England Finals 2010-2013 Time Taken for Matches

    I did an analysis of the above AE Finals and arrived at the following result:


    YEAR
    TIMETAKEN AVERAGE REASONS

    2013 222 M 44.4 MPM 1 RUBBER

    2012 224 M 44.8 MPM 1 RUBBER, 1 RETIREMENT (LCW)

    2011 233 M 46.6 MPM 1 RUBBER

    2010 330 M 66.0 MPM 4 RUBBERS

    (4-YEAR AVERAGE 50.45 MINUTES PER MATCH)


    CHINA OPEN 2013 (MOST RECENT)

    2013 250 M 50.0 MPM 3 RUBBERS


    From the above results, it would seem approximately 50 minutes is the average for each match. The finals are different in the sense that the events are competed among the best players available during the tournament.

    We have to take into account the standards of the opposing players/teams. If the level is too far apart, it will take a much shorter time, probably less than 30 minutes. Also in the event of withdrawals and retirement due to injury before and during the match.

    When the BWF first changed to the current scoring system, some of their main reasons were:

    1. Make it simple .
    2. Reduce the average time taken for each match.
    3. By so doing, spectators/fans can return home earlier.
    4. Players should encounter less injuries and fatigue if matches take a shorter duration.

    Apart from (1) above, it seems the other objectives were not met.

    The average match takes longer than the perceived 30 to 40 minutes.

    The skill level of most players has increased - thus they are able to stay on court much longer than before.

    It would seem some changes to the system are desirable, especially during round one when the most number of players will compete to advance to the next round. Shall we spread the number of days for R1/R2 or reduce the number of entries?

    To me the 21-rally point scoring system is acceptable but BWF has to take into account other factors.
     
    #10 Loh, Nov 18, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  11. London_Player

    London_Player Regular Member

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    matches getting longer, you must be joking? In the old scoring it was way too long. Now an average match last about 25 minutes and if it's 3 games played than just over an hour. In fact, the matches much shorter, in 30 minutes the match is over. In Tennis, to complete one set takes an hour.
     
  12. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    BWF matches getting longer ?

    .
    Right now, I am following the 2013 Hong Kong Open SS tournament. 4 matches have just been played :

    * Mixed Doubles - 45 minutes for a 2-games match.
    * Mens Singles - 49 minutes for a 3-games match.
    * Mixed Doubles - 27 minutes for a 2-games match.
    * Mixed Doubles - 30 minutes for a 2-games match.

    BWF matches getting longer? - I don't think so.

    IMHO, a game of Singles usually lasts 20 minutes (without reaching 20-all). In Doubles, it usually lasts 15 minutes (without reaching 20-all).

    Link for source of info :
    http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/sport/matches.aspx?id=CB06A499-97EF-4885-AA68-2CEAAB2DAE21
    .
     
    #12 chris-ccc, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  13. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    BWF matches getting longer?

    .
    If reaching 20-all, a game of Singles can last 25 minutes; a game of Doubles can last 20 minutes.

    Let's study this closely (I am sure sure that BWF is doing so too.)
    .
     
    #13 chris-ccc, Nov 20, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  14. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Isn't what you wrote more of a hypothesis?
     
  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    I am almost positive these are similar times to the old scoring system. I need to go to YouTube and do some research. When planning tournaments in the old scoring system, we would plan for 1 game to be 15-20 minutes.
     
  16. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Maybe those who attended yesterday's Hongkong Open for Round 1 could confirm whether they have run overtime against what was stated on the program fixtures. This will give a rough indication of whether the matches are taking longer than what was anticipated.

    Indeed there will be different timings for various events, depending on whether the opponents are of the same standard or otherwise. The wider their standards, usually during the earlier rounds, the shorter the match is expected.

    For the finals, competition is expected to be more keen and close - therefore a longer time is to be expected, unless injury or fatigue occurs to any of the players.


    For example in WS:

    Sayaka TAKAHASHI beat Jiayuan CHEN 21-15 21-14 in 30 minutes

    Busanan ONGBUMRUNGPAN beat Kaori IMABEPPU 21-17 21-13 in 43 minutes,

    Minatsu MITANI beat Pui Yin YIP 23-21 22-24 21-9 in 1 hour 8 minutes, and

    Ratchanok INTANON [2] beat Sindhu P. V 21-16 21-17 in 38 minutes
     
    #16 Loh, Nov 21, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  17. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    [MENTION=39250]gundamzaku[/MENTION]

    I'm glad you agree... :)

    We should just enjoy watching the game... and appreciate the players for their efforts and dedication and sacrifices that they have put into their training and their passion of the game of badminton. :)

    It is their full mind and body on the line when they compete on the court. I just don't understand why we should mess around by slowing their shuttle speeds on purpose, eg at the recent Victor China Open.
     
    #17 visor, Nov 21, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  18. gundamzaku

    gundamzaku Regular Member

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    couldn't agreed more :)
     
  19. chris-ccc

    chris-ccc Regular Member

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    Approximate time for a game

    .
    When you are researching, do pay attention to what event matches (MS, WS, MD, WD or XD) you are studying in detail.

    And then, perhaps calculate the AVERAGE TIME for each game (not for each match). Why? Because we don't know if a match is going to be 2-games or a 3-games match. And, usually the 3rd game takes longer than the 1st or the 2nd game.

    My experience tells me the approximate time for each game is :
    * MS - 20 minutes
    * WS - 20 minutes
    * MD - 15 minutes
    * WD - 15 minutes
    * XD - 15 minutes

    At the 2013 Hong Kong Open yesterday (Round of 16), this is what I have calculated;

    AVERAGE TIME taken for each game
    * MS - 19.42 minutes
    * WS - 18.05 minutes
    * MD - 17.10 minutes
    * WD - 16.44 minutes
    * XD - 16.67 minutes

    Calculation is based on data taken from this source: http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/s...06A499-97EF-4885-AA68-2CEAAB2DAE21&d=20131121
    .
     
    #19 chris-ccc, Nov 21, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013
  20. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Analysis of time taken in Round 2 or Round of 16 matches

    HONG KONG OPEN 2013 R2 MATCHES
    TIME TAKEN

    Match 1
    2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Total Average

    MS 41
    27 90 49 34 32 36 60 369 46.125

    WS 59 49 30 57 34 65 35 32 361 45.125

    MD 60 60 23 31 47 30 50 41 342 42.75

    WD 51 31 27 30 36 23 36 29 263 32.875

    XD 45
    59 41 32 27 24 29 43 300 37.5


    TOTAL TIME TAKEN FOR ALL MATCHES: 1,635 MINUTES.

    AVERAGE TIME PER MATCH: 40.875 MINUTES.

    LONGEST TIME: 90M IN MS K. TAGO BEAT HU YUN 18-21, 21-19, 25-23.

    SHORTEST TIME: 23M IN MD LEE/LEE BEAT CHAN/LO 21-120, 21-12 AND
    IN WD WANG/YU BEAT CHENG/HSIEH 21-16, 21-10.


    WE SHOULD EXPECT MATCHES TO BE SLIGHTLY LONGER FOR THE QF TODAY AS THE PLAYERS ARE LIKELY TO BE MORE SKILFUL AND MORE EVENLY MATCHED, UNLESS INJURY SETS IN TO END THE MATCH PREMATURELY.
     
    #20 Loh, Nov 21, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2013

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