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Is Lin Dan's Serve Illegal?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by sergesa, May 29, 2006.

  1. sergesa

    sergesa Regular Member

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    Lin Dan cheating on his serve?

    I am actually conducting a physiological and technical study using the Gade/Lin Dan semi-final match at the China Masters in 2006.

    It seems that, somehow, Lin Dan is hitting the feathers first when in serves with his forehand.

    The first pic, from above, shows he never hit the nose of the shuttle but the feathers.

    In the bottom pic, you will notice that he succeeds in doing so by throwing the bird instead of simply droping it.

    This is really strange.
     

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  2. habujoji

    habujoji Regular Member

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    Hi,
    Unfortunately i'm not an expert so i can't see with pictures if there's anything that could be matter of discussion about cheating. I just wanted to ask if the service had been the crucial point of the match. I aven't seen this match, so...If Peter Gade had lost most of the points with a strange deceptive service from Lin Dan, that sure must be something that need to be discuss. If not...
     
  3. sergesa

    sergesa Regular Member

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    The fact is that Lin Dan's forehand service is always the same and he seems to be hitting the feathers first which is prohibited by the rules.

    As a matter of fact, even Lin Dan backhand serve is faulty as he jocks the head of his racket prior to the serve, not always, most of the time.

    Rules are nade to stick by.

    When they become arbitrary, the game itself become arbitrary.
     
  4. Quasimodo

    Quasimodo Regular Member

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    What's the time lapse between those frames? The recovery time of feather shuttles is quite quick. IIRC, it's in some hundreths of a second. So, it can be difficult to judge what the contact point actually is.
     
  5. chickenpoodle

    chickenpoodle Regular Member

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    the images are just made to seem like he's serving illegally.
    from all of the matches i've seen, his serves are perfectly fine. the shuttle does not tumble or spin or do anything abnormal in terms of flight.
     
  6. ants

    ants Regular Member

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    Maybe he is trying it out in China Masters. Since its his home game.
     
  7. fishmilk

    fishmilk Regular Member

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    But I have noticed he has an error in his backhand serve. He jerks it back once before he actually serves which is illegal. He is consistent and honestly, in play, it really doesn't do any harm. However, I would think for a player who plays as much as he does, the umps should have caught it. Also you would expect the world #1 to be able to serve properly no?
     
  8. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I don't think we are qualified to be a judge, simply because we were not there. That is why they have a service judge. Also the spectators and the so-called aggrieved opponents would not have remained silent.
     
  9. jgao_net

    jgao_net Regular Member

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    you said it best. we are not there watching the game so we cant judge if he's serving illegally or not. also, i think that he has always been serving like that and so far, no judge has called it yet.
     
  10. sergesa

    sergesa Regular Member

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    I would find little problem with that if he _always_ did the jerk motion on his backhand serve.

    But, no. At times he does serve without the jerking motion.

    The serves of Gade, Hidayat, Lee... are all perfectly legal.

    Not Lin Dan's.
     
  11. Player13

    Player13 Regular Member

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    If this is a question of legality, which is a pretty strong accusation, then take it up with the IBF. Posting it here wont do much for bringing an accused cheater to justice. It would just sully his name with no solid proof since the photographs' timing are not taken into account. I've come to be objective in looking at photographs on the internet; photoshop-ing or doctoring pictures is nothing new, and have been used to incriminate many people.

    You speak very strongly about what you're saying here; that would mean either that you're trying to hurt his reputation, or you seriously think he's a a cheater. I'd just like to say that if you Really are concerned about the legality of his actions, take it up with the right officials, esp before making statements like the one above about his serve being illegal. If you have the proper evidence, then it will prove that he is a cheater, and will have done the Badminton community a favor by pointing this out. Less gossip, more justice!
     
  12. chibe_K

    chibe_K Regular Member

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    Talking about how Lin Dan cheats, nothing is more annoying than seeing him turning his back against the umpire and start working on the feathers to slow down the birdie. I have seen him doing it so many times and got away with it.
     
  13. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Come on, the only way to slow down the shuttle is to break and bend outwards the top feathers stem. Breaking and bending inwards will speed it up. This will give Lin Dan's opponent very damaging evidence to present to the umpire to warrant a red card. Combing the feathers to smooth them is another thing-there is nothing wrong with that.
    Let us be sensible. Do not try to be the umpire, service judge, all the line judges, and the tournament referee.
     
  14. sergesa

    sergesa Regular Member

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    Look here people,

    I am doing this work to prepare a very serious training program in badminton.

    So, the first thing I do is get the best 21 pointer so far. That happens to be Gade against Lin Dan in the semis of the 2006 China Masters.

    I get in Vegas Video and I trim all the non playing stuff to get a precise idea of how many playing time there is compared to rest time… and get that into a database for future use.

    In the course of this work I get to the fifth exchange of the match… Note the 3-1 score in favor of the Dane… and I can’t believe my eyes: the sequence definitely shows that Lin Dan is NOT hitting the shuttle on the nose. You will notice that the shuttle never changes shape and is driven forward without ever tumbling.

    I have included the full sequence with the 8 frames without jumping any.

    This is not doctoring: anybody who has the match will clearly see this.

    How could that be?

    So I went further in the match and, bingo, one can see how Lin Dan does it (that was my second set of pics): he throws the shuttle which will never tumble and he will eventually hit the feathers first.

    He does this throwing motion _every_ time he serves on his forehand.

    This was a complete surprise to me.

    I am not trying to smudge Lin Dan, I am only calling what I see.

    Don’t shoot the messenger.

    As I have pointed out, Lin Dan’s jerky motion on his backhand serve is _absolutely_ illegal. And he does not always do it. This simple fact removes any possibility of a lousy alibi: “hey! I can’t help it!”

    YET, I have NEVER seen him sanctioned for this serve. Any one cares to challenge this?

    And the IBF knows it.

    Now, I suppose you want me to send an email to the IBF and remind them that, according to their rules, the service starts when the racquet goes forward and it can never stop to go forward? That Mr. Lin Dan violates this rule all the time?
     

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  15. BadFever

    BadFever Regular Member

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    I think this thread should be renamed from "cheating" to "faulting" or something else. IMHO, cheating is a bit too harsh, especially when there are umpires and referees around during the match. Also, if PG (or any of his opponents) believed the serve is not allowed or unfair, he would have voiced it out during the match. PG or any Pro players would have enough experience to see how the shuttle react after the serve. Also, I think low serve in a game of Single is not as crucial as Double. Just my 2 cents.
     
  16. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The video quality is poor-there are double images. It doesn't say anything. It would be very poor evidence. BTW have you ever seen Lin Dan play live? Also Lin Dan has played in almost all the countries in the world, under all sorts of umpires and line and service judges. Perhaps you see something they don't?
     
  17. Neil Nicholls

    Neil Nicholls Regular Member

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    yep.
    I have seen LD faulted on his backhand serve for the forward back forward motion. And I've seen the action ignored by the same service judge in the same game. And I've seen other players with similar serves both faulted and ignored.

    The same problems, i.e. consistency of application of laws, exist in other sports.
     
  18. event

    event Regular Member

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    I'm not convinced that these photos show an illegal serve.

    One thing I'm wondering is whether these are low forehand serves or long serves. The reason I ask is that Lin's racquet is in front of his body throughout the motion. Most long serves involve a backswing that will pass the lateral position of your torso at some point.

    Regardless, it is clear that the toss you mention makes the shuttle point toward the net before contact is made. That doesn't guarantee that the strings hit the feathers first. If the racquet face is pointing forward and upward at an even slightly flatter angle than the back feathers, the strings can still make contact with the cork first.

    The other thing to consider is that after the cork is struck, the cork should move forward faster than the feathers. In other words, as soon as contact is made, the angle of the feathers should necessarily be backward and upward. If the feathers are struck first, the position of the shuttle in the frame following contact should have the feathers pointing forward and upward. Either that or some wildly unexpected position as with the so-called S-serve.
     
  19. event

    event Regular Member

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    We're also obviously missing part of his backswing. Take a look at his racquet position in these frames 6 and 7:
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    His racquet is further back in 7 than 6. That means both that only 2 of these 8 frames show the backswing/contact portion of the serve and that we are missing part of both the backswing and the contact. If the racquet can go back from its forward position in frame 6 and into a backswing of whatever depth and then come back to its position in frame 7, what can the position of the shuttle do in that same interval? Where is contact made? It isn't clear whether it is between frames 7 and 8 or after frame 8. If it is the former, I have already pointed out that there is an interval between frames during which the angle of the shuttle could change such that it would be more obvious that the racquet face were flat enough to strike the cork. If it is the latter, then these photos mean nothing, anyway.
     
  20. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    A big fuss over insignificant matter base on blurry observations, even if it was truly illegal

    1. top view photos showed potential contacting feather first but side photos, imo, don't say the same story.

    2. throwing instead dropping a shuttle for serving isn't illegal.

    3. EVEN if lin dan purposely hit the feather first, it is insignificant and maybe even disadvantage to LD.
    a) the illegal 'S' serve is effective in double but not so in singles. Shuttle has to travel LONGER from ~ center to center of court, providing plenty of distance for the shuttle to return to stablized flight trajectory, unlike in double serve where distance is much shorter.
    b) when the serving distance is longer in singles, it is much harder to gauge the correct and desired angle and weight of your serve, making it a DISADVANTAGE for the server.

    4. The best view is from the service judge and Mr Gade himself, WHY THEY HAVEN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT IT:confused: :confused: :confused:


    More examples of photos used as proof:
    1. US landing on the moon was filmed in a studio.
    2. US release of fuzzy video of a small white flying object hitting the pentagon doesn't prove it's a jet liner.


    sergesa, i never serve with similar motion, are mine serves illegal?
    here is one advance training advice, if u serve with same motion, U R PREDICTABLE.

    I'm not condoning LD alleged purposeful faulted serve, I only wish the rules are applied equally to all players.
     
    #20 cooler, May 30, 2006
    Last edited: May 30, 2006

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