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Is pronation the way to go?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by vajrasattva, Mar 27, 2013.

  1. vajrasattva

    vajrasattva Regular Member

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    been trying to cope with both a "badminton elbow" and some chronic deltoid tendonitis for a very long time (11 yrs), injuries that resulted from being a javelin thrower. in some way, i've had changed my playing style to almost purely defensive, minimal smashing, which can be easily taken advantage of

    seems easy to always assume people at public groups are nice and humble, but its seldom the case these days. there are a few people whom are rather cocky and have pretty much the "gift" of the "gap", so i've decided to re-build my smash to let them eat some shuttles.

    currently i can only achieve 40% the power that i use to be able to generate. bad habits from being a thrower results in typically a forward swing motion ending with a wrist snap, which occassionally over swinging results in pain.

    is converting over to pronation smash the only way to go?
     
  2. |_Footwork_|

    |_Footwork_| Regular Member

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    long question, short answer:
    yes!
     
  3. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    huh? if you want to smash (or clear) with any power effectively, is there any other way?
     
  4. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    it's similar for backhand clear (or smash)... you can't do it effectively if you don't supinate
     
  5. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I think I have to agree with visor... as usual.
     
  6. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    You don't have the use the conventional "pronation" method, a lot of the past pros never used the modern pronation technique but still played very well.

    If you're suffering from an injury to your arm, I suggest you don't think about pronating at all during your strokes - it will come naturally. I had an injury to my shoulder for almost as many years so I know how frustrating it can be.

    Instead there are several things I would suggest you do to help with your injury. First make sure you have the correct equipment. Grip size, tension and racquet stiffness are all very important to help your injury.

    Secondly, remember to relax your whole arm before the stroke, only tightening your grip (and thus your forearm) just before impact with the shuttle.

    Finally, don't think about pronation. Instead focus only on hitting the shuttle completely square (perpendicular) to the flight of the shuttle. If you do this, it will help you over-pronating and causing further injury.
     
  7. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    What technique did they use instead?
     
  8. J_Noodles

    J_Noodles Regular Member

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    I think R20190 meant that professionals probably don't think about pronation when they hit. In fact, many coaches do not explicitly cover the pronation portion of the stroke, but they say it is the part of the stroke where you extend your arm to hit the shuttle. Getting the correct basic grip (grip held w/ fingers, not in palm) will naturally lead to pronation
     
  9. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    In modern badminton, there is a lot of emphasis on the "supination-pronation" technique with many coaches teaching this before a player can hit the shuttle properly. I disagree with this personally.

    In the past, novices are simply taught to have the correct grip, throwing action and just concentrate on striking the shuttle cleanly. By doing this, not only is there less to think about, but you would already be supinating/pronating to some extent anyway and arguably in a more natural stroke.

    To answer your question, it is essentially the same technique but there is far less emphasis/exaggeration on supination/pronation and also the pronation on the follow-through (after striking the shuttle) is far less pronounced.

    A good example would be to look at how Zhao Jian Hua plays and compare his technique with say Lin Dan.

    The S/P technique is indeed more efficient and if executed well can be incredibly deceptive, but ZJH was perhaps the most deceptive player I've seen yet he did not use the modern S/P technique.
     
  10. DuckFeet

    DuckFeet Regular Member

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    I've noticed that my baby (circa 6 months) naturally pronates when waving her arms about. It's a gradual movement such that the pronation occurs over the entire arm swing. I've copied this and as R20190 said, I just aim to hit it square-on and let the pronation happen. I've caused myself problems previously by forcing it, condensing full supination/pronation in a fraction of the arm movement.
     
  11. bbirdman

    bbirdman Regular Member

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    Pure pronation with correct grip is best technique if you have shoulder injury. Other techniques use more shoulder and arm swing.

    Agree its not necessary to talk about pronation in the first instance. Just correct grip and natural throwing action that feels no strain. If your a newbie to this then at first when if hitting correctly you should find the shuttle veers off to the left (vice versa if your left handed). Adjust your stance to account for this more side on. But dont get mechanical try stay on balls of feet with a nice bouncy follow through. Think Mohammed Ali

    Have to disagree though DO NOT HOLD racket in fingers while doing shot. Hold more in palm but not fist grip, relaxed but not loose in hand.

    Basically you hold racket in fingers with basic grip for quick grip changes. Once you know what shot with which grip your playing you then grip the racket a bit more firmly, but not a fist grip. Then on hitting shuttle apply brakes to transfer power better. Think Bruce Lee punch
     
  12. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    Do you have a clear video of ZJH's technique? Cause his matches were from the 90's and it's kind of hard to see what kind of technique he was using.
     
  13. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    Most of the videos of him are actually in the 80's as he retired in 92. So they are all generally VHS conversions, which tend to be quite poor quality I'm afraid.

    Have a look at this thread, there are some videos of ZJH on there.

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php/118578-The-history-of-Zhao-Jian-Hua
     
  14. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    To see ZJH's technique, just check out the slow mo sections of his coaching videos on YouTube
     
  15. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    Oooh that guy is THE Zhao Jianhua. Damn I have his whole training video with Xiao Jie lol. I thought he's just some random Chinese coach. He looked so different back in the days.
     
  16. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Hah... yep, he's gained some wt and lost some height. :)

    But he still loves joking around.
     
  17. kaki!

    kaki! Regular Member

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    OT, do you have all of his videos on youtube? I got most of them but one episode got corrupted/truncated.
     
  18. SSSSNT

    SSSSNT Regular Member

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    ^ I dunno I just downloaded them from somewhere. May not be complete either.

    Not clear on this. Are you saying it is the same technique, it's just the way they practice it was different? Or are they actually different but equally effective?
     
  19. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    Ok. Not sure how I can describe it better, it's probably best if you watch this video which shows his forehand OH stroke in slow motion. Forward to 1.58.

    [video=youtube;CzvoIL5x0RM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzvoIL5x0RM[/video]

    Now compare it to say, this chap who has, imo a very exaggerated, if a little unnatural S/P stroke. Forward to 1.08. But don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just illustrating the subtle difference.

    [video=youtube;HNVC5PVJyPQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNVC5PVJyPQ[/video]

    Also, just for your interest, here's coach LJB demostrating the "power smash". He has a more pan handle grip but take a look at his stroke and follow through.

    [video=youtube;fJ6Zu6Lerpw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ6Zu6Lerpw[/video]

    Oh and I was once told that Peter Rasmussen had a very nice classic action too, although I've not studied his technique to comment.
     
    #19 R20190, Apr 5, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2013
  20. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Most important is to lead with elbow, then pronate crisply to some degree. Oftentimes educational videos show exaggerated motions as the coach wants to over emphasize a subtle technique.
     

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