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Its all in the wrists?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Bbn, Apr 26, 2004.

  1. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Having watched a few tournaments lately and watching some vintage videos (Zhao,Rudy, Yang Yang,Poul Erik),I seem to come to the conclusion
    that past players use more wristwork than present.

    Also comparing Yonekura with Jun Jae Youn, Jun plays with her wrists but Yonekura is very stiff and more of a runner like Roslin, Chen Hong,etc.

    I think why Taufik, Mia, Gade, Lin Dan, Bao,Hafiz, etc excel is because

    of wrtistwork. other things being equal. Better wristwork could translate into more disguise and deception and more variety in racquet skills and strokes.

    Anyone thinks the same?
     
  2. Dill

    Dill Regular Member

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    Deception was always described as "a flick of the wrist", so yes!

    It is an older way of playing which did not rely on supreme fitness.
     
  3. other

    other Regular Member

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    Very true....helps a lot with deception...against me:)
     
  4. wilfredlgf

    wilfredlgf Regular Member

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    Sadly, wristwork to me is quite specific as I only use it a lot where fitnesse shots are concerned such as net, drops etc. When I home in to power, the wrist becomes hardened and stiff.

    And it's true though, deception comes from the wrist as one former Kelantanese (a state in Malaysia) told me once, "You change the direction of shuttle flight using the wrist, not the body".

    I once did a 'delay' at the net by letting the shuttle drop some half a second longer, and pulling it to the back when the opponent was expecting a net tumble and all that was involved was the wrist and timing. But deception should also include body language as part of the parcel alongside a loose wrist, I say.
     
  5. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    I think the other face of disguise and deception is the overhead stroke for executing lobs, drops (whats that, rarely used today for some reason),and smashes.
    Some players use the same arm action then at last moment tiurn their wrists eg Ra amd Kim.Others chop the shuttles (eg. Xie Xin Fang).

    I think players dont like to use deceptive shots as they are afraid to perform errors in the mould of Li Ling Wei or Ye Zhao Ying and prefer to play safe shots to slowly grind down opponents.

    I mention this after watching Taufik toy with Ng Wei or Wu Yu Yong (products of China's endless supply of players).Taufik was using them to try out some new trick shots (arrogant?).

    Or maybe players dare not be too clever to be on the safe side(from coaches)I think deception in singles play can be quite useful when the situation demands.
     
  6. coops241180

    coops241180 Regular Member

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    i think deception and the confidence to play deceptive shots, which are always risky and involve taking the shuttle later than is ideal , develop with experience - since most of todays singles players are 'old in the tooth' by the time they are 25 they never get the time to develop the deceptive shots. we are only now seeing them in the likes of Gade, who is, i think, in his prime, he may not be as fit or as strong as some of the younger players, but he has experience, and a wide range of deceptive returns which give him an extra edge.
     
  7. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Wonder if it would be better to intersprese Opens with Masters tours where

    a select few are invited to play round-robin.

    Maybe then audiences would be able to see more skills displayed instead of

    the commercial fixed menu game plyed in exhaustting opens
     
  8. UkPlayer

    UkPlayer Regular Member

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    Prakash Padukone used to be a wrist master. Has this filtered through to current Indian Players?
     
  9. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Interesting Prakash.

    In 1980 Ae Liem Swie King was all at sea agaist Prakash,

    Rudy Hartono coped well though as his style was similar to Prakash and more but Rudy lost on fitness.

    Then in 1981 World Cup Han Jian struggled lost 15-0, 18-16 !After that Han Jian seldom beat Prakash, Liem Swie did and Luan Jin continued to beat Prakask using pure speed and power.

    After Prakash burst on the scene many players like Misbun adopted some of his techniques.

    I suspect even players like Yang Yang or Zhao could have learnt sth from him.
     
  10. bluejeff

    bluejeff Regular Member

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    I was watching some old games, and I noticed the similar things. Also, some new age people really rely on their smashes much more than consistency or neatness as old players.
     
  11. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    The best example of superior techniques over pure speed and power can be seen in recent Ra Kyun Min/Kim Dong Moon vs Zhang Jun/Gao Ling encounters. Also Taufik vs Chen Hong.

    It s like matador vs Bull.

    I think all this will become apparent in Tcup when China play Ina, for an hr or so the ina will play like demons, excelling the speed and power of others.

    I dont totally agree that Young players dont have deception or good technques, Lin Dan ,Bao Cun Lai, Zhao, Yang Yang all had them when they started early.
     
  12. SteveStanley

    SteveStanley Regular Member

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    I agree that wrist is one of the keys in badminton, but I disagree that the new generation use less wrist, I think they combine their writs with power and speed. But their wrist is still very powerful.
     
  13. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    If you are refering to 1982 Thomas cup, observe Chen Chang Jie,

    how many players today can match his jumping smashes, his net interceptions and fitness ? Yet Liem Swie King thrashed him, so would Rudy Hartono if they had met in 1982.

    I think Chen didin't take his game 1 echelon higher, he never won any GP tour.
     
  14. Ti_kon

    Ti_kon Regular Member

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    Interestingly I observed this debate yesterday as I was about to leave the gym.

    Two games were playing. Both were men double. One was with 3 seniors and a young man, the other was with 3 middle age men and a late twenty somthing man.

    The senior players used a lot of deception shots and I saw much of the skills were from their wrists. They hit sharp angle, cross court, tight to the net shots. They only smashed to end the rallies.

    Meanwhile, the other game had lots more smashes and power shots that focused on brute strenght.

    My guess is that as a player gets older, the power game decreases so deception and precision shots are choosen to compensate as well as to reserve energy.

    A good example of this is Andre Agassi and Pete Samprass. Andre is know for his rally, presicion and tatical style of play, with which enables him to have a long career. Pete on the other hand was a power game. His game declined as his power decreased. Can't compare to Andy Roddic with his 140Mp serves. pete is now retired.

    As for which one is better, I think it depends on how well the players execute the game plans.

    Ti_Kon

    Now I have questions, how do you improve your wrist skills? Are there certain trainnings that will help? What are some basic tips one must remember when executing wrist shots?
     
    #14 Ti_kon, Apr 30, 2004
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2004
  15. Ti_kon

    Ti_kon Regular Member

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    Found the link to my questions.

    Ti_Kon
     
  16. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    gotta bring back this interesting thread.

    Bbn i think when you say wrist, it is more a general mechanism. in fact the deceptive component also involves a lot of subtle finger movements. in fact, i think the finger movement contributes equally to the deceptive element of the shot as wrist.

    i do envy the very very few players in the gym who have both a powerful as well as agile wrist. not many do, but the ones who does, they are a joy to watch.
     
  17. Californian

    Californian Regular Member

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    I suppose that's generally true, but those of us who learned to play in the old days of wooden frames and stainless steel shafts were taught that the smash was reserved for finishing off the rally when you got a short lift.
     
  18. lalanthier

    lalanthier Regular Member

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    One of my coaches once gave me an explaination I quite like:

    If you channel all the power of your body, you'll get the same amount of work done without any effort. Given that a player clears correctly, they should be able to clear from one end of the court to the other. I think the whole body motion (even if you don't, at least make sure you're not screwing up yourself by moving your arm left and your foot right).

    Despite that I think my most powerful shot comes from my wrist. It can generate, if neccessary, the same drive as a full sideways swing of the arm. And it's definately neccessary for the surprise shots.

    I think it's still importance to balance out the muscles though. I find my shots a lot more smooth when I can get my entire body to basically participate in the shot because of the power your entire body has. But definately, I enjoy the wrist shots - they are the key element to deseption.
     
  19. Slanter

    Slanter Regular Member

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    I am sure this has been discussed at length before. It is not helpful to rely on feedback from your own body to decide what is actually happening though a shot. If professional players technique is examined in slow motion there will be very little active wrist movement, the same goes for tennis players when they serve. Video shows that te key arm movement is the pronation of the forearm, not a deliberate movement of the wrist.

    If you start from a good position and apply the force correctly the arm will move through the shot naturally and the wrist will snap through impact. The important factor here is shoulder and arm relaxaton. Try hitting a few clears from your hip, dangle the arm losely by your side and feel the hip start the motion, the results are quite profound.

    Following this logic, though, (i.e. if your body is telling you that you are using one joint when you are really using the next one up) it makes sense that when people think they are using their fingers they are propbably gathering power mainly from their wrist.

    In terms of deception, their is a great article by Martin Dew at badders.com
     
  20. dlp

    dlp Regular Member

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    Anyone who thinks that modern players aren't deceptive should try playing against one. To be deceptive you often need to be in a position to apply any shot (attacking options) , modern players ar so much faster they have this option all the time. Look at a great past player like Zhao who played an occasional underarm turned net reply to the short serve with deception for a winner.

    Modern players like Gade are taking that short singles serve above the hand at the net and flicking to the back or hitting down or playing a held net shot. You simply don't have time in the modern game to let the shuttle drop low and play a floated shot to the net.
     

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