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It's Official - No Penalty for Lin Dan or Li Mao

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by huangkwokhau, Mar 14, 2008.

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  1. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Hmm..my 2 sen rupiahs..

    ..a very interesting turn of events..and decision..Now, we want to see REAL actions!...Btw, thanks, guys, for the news update-:cool:
    ..yes..on another hand, it should be interesting to see the reaction/response by both the KBA **and** China's badminton association, if and when they'll host a major BWF event in their home turf..:cool:
    ..i think kwun and the mods will be watching this thread very2 closely...;) :cool:

    As for the question in bold, i would think the decision of using international linejudges is, simply, to prevent any bias linejudging/a sense that the local linejudges are "favouring the local players". It's a bit unfortunate that it had to take this type of incident for them (BWF) to do something about the linejudging issue, but i guess that's what the panel/committee has concluded to prevent any similar incidents in the future.
     
    #21 ctjcad, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2008
  2. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i guess bwf wanna take baby steps regarding the line judging matter.
     
  3. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    I for one think internation line judge will not work in long term. Why? Look at the ice skating incidents in the past. I want to be a devil's advicate here also. Look at the tennis Grand Slams. Ther are serveral regular chair emp used for the big match. They over rule line call when they see a miss call. Why can't the chair emp do the same in this case? I fell that it is more KBA's fault than anyone else. However, I fell LD can just walk off the court in protest, even Jonny Mac never throw a racquet at another player. Like Jimmy Conners only play tennis with the water bottle. Yes, I think LD should be fined as an example. The truth is, the fine is just some pocket changes compair to the endorsement fee they gets.
    About machine line call, I am on Feder's side about the machine line call. It is a calculation based on the masurements of the ball and other variables but not enough. Tennis ball is in if any part of the ball makes contact with the line. It is not initial contact point of the ball. Our wonderful sport of badminton is judging on the initial contact point of shuttle. If the initial contact point is outside of the line, it is out. Even if the force deformed the shuttle head or the feather roll around to touch the line, it is still out. There are still too difficult for machine to make a call at this point for badminton.
     
  4. Loopy

    Loopy Regular Member

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    This is just wrong.
    There is a bad line call, and is that a reason to throw the racket at somebody?
    A reason to protest yes. To be in an agressive behaviour, absolutely not.
    And the conclusion to all this: it's the line caller's fault that Lin Dan threw his racket. Ridiculous.
    Even in Hockey there are penalities for maligned behavior.
     
  5. Fan888

    Fan888 Regular Member

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    I think it was a fair, diplomatic, and compromising conclusion that everyone gets blame and no one gets punished. But, unfortunately, I don't think using independent line judges would work for the long run. Can you imagine the additional costs of bringing in these line judges. It is not that badminton is very profitable to start with.
     
  6. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    I agree that introducing international line judges would probably reduce bias, but like cooler said it won't prevent wrong line calls. Humans make errors and with the speed the shuttle travels there will always be errors.

    I don't believe it will make the quality of badminton higher though, and it will massively increase the cost of running a tournament to either the BWF or the organiser. Like we said before if you have to have 50+ linejudges flown in from around the world and suppl them accomadation you are talking paying a significant % of the total prize money out.
     
  7. YinLoung

    YinLoung Regular Member

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    That would make you a cheater and not a badminton player.
     
  8. Birdwood

    Birdwood Regular Member

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    The issue as I said before in the thread of "The impact of bad line calls on MSF players in KO 08 and CO 07" was bigger than metering out punishments to LD and LM. The blames went around to the organizer, linesmen, etc. To quantify appropriate amount of punishment for each party involved would be very difficult. Without even-handedly punishing everyone, any punishment to LD would be viewed by China as unfair and unacceptable, which could further the confrontation started by an unjustifiable root cause of biased linesmen in KO 08. It was China vs BWF, not LD vs BWF. BWF has apparently no stomach for such a political fight.

    A related question to punishment would be how BWF could take back the KO MSF 08 title from LHI and gave it to LD? As the game 3 tied at 21-21, LD lost the next point to LHI because of a bad line call. Without that biased call or even with a LET by the umpire, LD would have won MSF title, at least on paper, since he won the subsequent two points. For that reason, LD could have been robbed of MS title in KO MSF 08. How BWF would be able to address that thorny issue? A solution of "No punishment" satisfies LD as a trade off for his bad behavior with his possible winning. Everyone involved now can move forward.
     
  9. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    good summary birdwood. Some of your comments were those 'unspoken variables' that i was alluding to.;)

    Punishment for LD and/or Li mao are petty retribution when compared to the ramification of such penalty and the much bigger issues at hand. Also, this year is the olympic year where bwf want to show case badminton. To really resolve this incident properly, bwf have to delicate manpower, time and money which they don't have in 2008. No one was hurt, no property damage done, it is better to spend resources to fix the core problem. By not penalizing LD or Li Mao, I strongly doubt this incident would encourage more players, coaches and organizers to repeat the KO incident. I do hope everybody have learned something from this in their own way.
     
    #29 cooler, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2008
  10. Tsumaranai

    Tsumaranai Regular Member

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    I don't see how that would be cheating in any form. As well, this discussion is flawed. You're all assuming that the players don't have the integrity that has been attributed to this game. You also can't determine that Lin Dan was throwing the racket toward Li Mao with malice. It may have been in the general direction, but that has no bearing. This will not really incite any abuse of policy, as there have been disreputable claims against the KBA/KO and the line judges prior to this, and complaints are not filed for all competitions, thus misbehavior in another tournament would not be judged in the same manner. This is a logical fallacy, as people are being presumptuous that it would lead to such further ill-natured conduct. The event of a certain occurence does not conclude in the likeliness of another because it may be possible, and even if it did happen, you can't prove that it was because of such an action, or that it was inevitable.
     
  11. jump_smash

    jump_smash Regular Member

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    Like I have posted in the past "international Line Judges" are the most appropriate action. BWF uses them in Thomas and Uber Cups!

    They use and pay independent Umpires and Tournament referees.....they need to be professional with Line Judges.
     
  12. Birdwood

    Birdwood Regular Member

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    I agree that the incident and its resolution will not lead to more recurrences for similar episode. Why? The confrontation between LD and LM brought out to the open a long ignored fact that biased line judging can produce wrong match winners. Now BWF has to get serious about fixing the root cause to restore the confidence, which will remove the fuel for such dispute in the future. Besides, the episode taught everyone a lesson for how to properly behave oneself. I think BWF comes out this incident smarter and more determined to take control of the situation rather than letting some biased linesmen decide the match outcomes.
     
  13. Tsumaranai

    Tsumaranai Regular Member

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    I think that unless the player did not see the shuttle go out, then they should be the line judge, as they'll have a better perspective, and sometimes the line judges make incorrect calls. The line judges should be there to either support the player's decision or overrule it. Although the conceived flaw in that is that if the line judge has a conviction that it's out and it was not, then it would still be a bad call.
     
    #33 Tsumaranai, Mar 14, 2008
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2008
  14. block306

    block306 Regular Member

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    Where is justice??!!!

    Saturday March 15, 2008

    No more biased line calls
    PETALING JAYA: The World Badminton Federation (BWF) have finally made the right call by deciding to use independent line judges for future major tournaments.
    The decision was made in the wake of the controversy surrounding the poor line calls during a match between China’s Lin Dan and South Korean Lee Hyun-il in the final of the Korean Open in January.
    The biased judging in favour of Hyun-il saw Lin Dan blowing his top and getting involved in a scuffle with South Korea coach Li Mao of China. Hyun-il eventually won the title.
    Yesterday, the BWF’s Major Incident Review Team (MIRT) found that their investigation on the match between Lin Dan and Hyun-il showed that the linesmen had favoured the local player.
    MIRT chairperson Anne Smillie said that they would recommend to the BWF council, who will meet in Jakarta during the Thomas Cup Finals in May, to use independent judges for all major tournaments, including the Olympic Games in Beijing.
    The team, however, will not take disciplinary actions against Lin Dan or any of the coaches following the Korean incident.
    The MIRT also met up with Dr Paul Hawkins’ Hawk-Eye company during the recent All-England to discuss if the technology used in tennis for disputed line calls could be implemented for badminton.
     
  15. cxytdn

    cxytdn Regular Member

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    Panel concludes Korea Open investigation

    Panel concludes Korea Open investigation

    14 March 2008


    The Badminton World Federation's Major Incident Review Team (MIRT) met during the Yonex All England Open Championships in Birmingham to conclude their investigations and into the developing controversy over line judge calls.

    The investigation was prompted by incidents during the Korean Open in January but especially in the men's singles final between Lin Dan of China and Lee Hyun-ll of Korea.

    The Team - led by Anne Smillie (Scotland), Chair of the BWF Sport Committee, and including Robin Bryant (Australia) and Torsten Berg (Denmark) - considered the evidence and examined reports received from tournament officials. A fourth member of MIRT, Roger Johannsen (Sweden), was unable to attend but was kept fully informed about the discussions and contributed to the recommendations.

    Anne Smillie said: “It was a sad fact that the evidence did show that some line judges were not basing their decisions on the facts. The evidence, particularly from the Korean event, led to the conclusion that line calls were in favour of local players.”

    As a result, the Team will recommend to the BWF Council, meeting in May in Jakarta, that for all major BWF events, including the Olympics, independent line judges must be used.
    For Super Series events, organisers should use independent line judges on the major lines.

    The Team felt it important to remind all court officials, the tournament referee, umpires and line-judges that they have two paramount responsibilities.

    Firstly, they should reassure the players that the competition is run in a fair way.

    Secondly, they should demonstrate that court officials are there to give players their best possible chance of performing to their optimum level.

    Anne said the Team would not be calling for disciplinary action against Lin Dan or any of the coaches following the Korean incident. But she added: “We are determined to ensure that coaches have a clear understanding of their responsibilities when courtside.

    “We are all agreed that Lin Dan's behaviour was unacceptable but, given the way in which the situation was handled at the time by the Umpire and Referee, it is not appropriate to impose further punishment.”

    However, Torsten Berg added: “It is important that the Korean Badminton Association recognise that the issue reflected badly on their event and on the image of Super Series. The Koreans must address the problem otherwise players might not be interested in playing in their tournament in the future.”

    In an attempt to reduce the number of disputed line calls, the MIRT members met Dr Paul Hawkins' Hawk-Eye company during the All England to examine how effective the technology would be in resolving disputed calls.

    The Team, well aware of the technology's success in other sports, will submit a report to Council on the possibilities of introducing it for badminton and BWF will continue to examine the possibilities.

    But Robin Bryant said: “While the technology could be useful, it would not be the complete answer. Building up a code of ethics for line judges, ensuring proper training and establishing a core of internationally-qualified line judges remains as big a priority for BWF.”

    While in Birmingham, Bryant addressed the Badminton Line Judges’ Association and encouraged them to work with BWF to raise standards and to recruit new members. He said: “There’s a large number of people interested in traveling to and working at events and I urge the Association to grasp this opportunity.”
     
  16. Loopy

    Loopy Regular Member

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    Are you kidding?
    Don't start making assumptions that LD would have won only because he won the next two points. This is SPECULATION.

    There is a limit to how you can protest, throwing a racket and pulling out your fist shouldn't be viewed as acceptable.
    In Copenhagen Masters 2007, the shuttle was very clearly out in the second set, but was seen in by the linesmen. KJ would have won the 2nd set if it was ruled out. KJ was upset, but did you see him get into a fight? No.

    The conclusion reached by the bwf is a joke....
     
  17. azabaz_ipoh

    azabaz_ipoh Regular Member

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    i agree with the above. :)

    yeah, for practical reasons, it is not advisable to do this. it is just to make sure the line calls are not biased but it will not ensure it is not wrong. why dont they just experiment with more camera on court so that a replay of every angle can be shown for any disputed calls. i still think that this is the best and most practical solution. and the cameras are easier to organize than humans i think. :D

    wah.....sounds like a lawyer! :)

    what gives. if the line judges, who are humans, can make bad line calls, so can the players (who are also humans). when i play, sometimes i am not sure if the shuttle falls in or out because it is so close. and maybe sometimes the players see what is favourable to him or her. not saying they intend to cheat, but humans tend to see differently in different situation. that is why when the police are doing an investigation of an accident for example, there are many version of what happened. :)


    i do not agree that nobody got punish at all. i believe the korean BA should be heavily reprimanded for their part in the fiasco. and i also believe li mao and lin dan should also be punished. but that is out of my hands. and now it is just part of history. and we have seen two sides of this argument in many locked threads so lets not repeat it. lets just agree to disagree. and maybe we should focus more on teh future and how BWF will handle this matter. if they fail to make changes within this year and especially during the olympics, then i would say that it has failed to uphold badminton's good name in sports. :eek:
     
  18. wilfredlgf

    wilfredlgf Regular Member

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    Let bygones be bygones.

    The damage to reputation is going to hurt more than a fine.
     
  19. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I believe it was a good decision, putting the blame on the KBA for creating an environment with line judges obviously "cheating thru their teeth" in broad daylight. It created an explosive atmosphere, and players and officials who "took the law into their own hands" have commited a justifiable reaction.
    It was only a matter of time incidents like this would exlpode one day in either China or Korea, two countries that came to the edge of "provocative" mismanagement of the SS time and again.
     
  20. Oldhand

    Oldhand Moderator

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    It seems both Lin Dan's and Li Mao's acts were 'crimes of passion' :p
    Those are excusable, aren't they?

    In any case, the BWF is treading carefully ;)
    Had they blamed the general conduct of the game rather than the KBA's conduct of the game, it might eventually backfire on the sport's standing.

    With the Olympics looming ahead, it makes no sense for the BWF to show the sport in any lesser light.
     
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