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Joaquim Fischer's double action serve illegal?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by visor, Oct 30, 2011.

?

Is Joaquim Fischer service illegal?

  1. ILLEGAL

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. LEGAL

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Since he and his partner have been winning more tournaments recently (DO and FO), I've been watching more of his matches recently. He has an incredible intensity and desire when he plays that is lacking in so many other pro players.

    However, I've noticed that his serves have a double action every single time. The racket face will go forwards by 1-2 inches and then he'll pull it back to restart another forward motion, this time hitting the bird. I'm quite surprised that he hasn't been penalized on this by the service judges. Any one else notice this?
     
  2. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    But there is no backmotion first ... hence the serve hsan't started yet?
     
  3. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    9.1.7 the movement of the server's racket shall continue forwards from the start of the service (Law 9.2) until the service is delivered (Law 9.3);

    9.2 Once the players are ready for the service, the first forward movement of the server's racket head shall be the start of the service.


    No, the first forward motion is deemed the start of service according to 9.2, so by 9.1.7 his serve is illegal as it does not continue forwards the first time but goes back and then goes forward a second time.
     
  4. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    9.1 In a correct service:
    9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once the server and the
    receiver are ready for the service. On completion of the backward movement of server’s
    racket head
    , any delay in the start of the service (Law 9.2), shall be considered to be an
    undue delay;

    But I guess that's just for the set position .. still downloading so I can watch it in slowmo :cool: ... only saw the one point from the qf match. No one seems to ever complain about it so I guess they don't see it as the start of the serve yet?
     
    #4 demolidor, Oct 30, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2011
  5. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    * ---- * * ---- *
     
    #5 demolidor, Oct 30, 2011
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2011
  6. Heong

    Heong Regular Member

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    interesting

    to be honest I haven't noticed prior reading this post and I've been watching so many of his matches lately
     
  7. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yeah, I didn't really notice it initially, but I can tell his action is kinda jerky, not smooth continuous forward. On slow mo replays that BWF shows sometimes after a good rally, you can see the double action more obviously.
     
  8. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Lin Dan used to do this as well. He has slightly changed his action now, though.

    It appears as though the judges take the stance that if it is consistent, and not intended to cause diception, then a fault will not be called. Even though technically, it (a double-action serve) is.
     
  9. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Come to think of it, that's right! LD did that all the time. Good point.
     
  10. madbad

    madbad Regular Member

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    In fact there was one video clip showing he did a triple-action service
     
  11. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    The interesting thing was if opponents start complaining about it pointing it out to the service judge.. If he have to change I am sure it would mess wth him :) .. Perhaps they are saving it as a secret weapon for OG :D
     
  12. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Perhaps he was just nervous serving to LCW? :p :D
     
  13. moomoo

    moomoo Regular Member

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    can link the clip for us to see? :D
     
  14. madbad

    madbad Regular Member

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    JF or LD? If LD, it was on a BC thread somewhere. Maybe some resourceful detective can dig it up. :)
     
  15. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XDArPuqbz8&feature=feedu

    At 2:09:39 you can easily see his double action serve. Actually didn't think about this thread until I was watching the replays. He definitely have an illegal serve and it's too bad he doesn't get called out on it. If I was playing I would definitely get thrown off by the serve for the first game or so.
     
  16. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    seems illegal to me...

    [video=youtube;0-mC7ujEU9Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-mC7ujEU9Y[/video]
     
  17. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    A very good observation. This could be his Achilles heel if he doesn't correct it.
     
  18. Maklike Tier

    Maklike Tier Regular Member

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    You guys are on drugs. There's no way Fischer will EVER get pulled up on that serve. EVER.Aside from the fact that it's barely noticeable, it's part of his natural service action that he uses for every serve, so it's not malicious or a deceptive technique.After watching almost every broadcast game in recent history, I'd be more concerned with players serving above their waist, because there are a lot of players pushing the friendship in that aspect.
     
  19. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    ^^ True. There is no deception. He does this on every single serve.

    However, the service and preparation prior to it on both the server and receiver has become like a cat and mouse game in the past 2 years. With hand raising indicating non preparation till the very last second amongst the Chinese players, excessive hand patting between partners a la BoMo, these delay tactics are getting tiresome.
     
  20. Maklike Tier

    Maklike Tier Regular Member

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    Yeah they are getting tiresome, but Fischer/Pedersen are not big offenders there even. It would be good if the Umpires showed more authority I think, but it should be solely to improve the flow of the game rather than to be pedantic with the rules. If people are persistent with their serves and they're not flaunting the rules to gain advantage, then no harm no foul. Simple as that.
     

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