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Joaquim Fischer's double action serve illegal?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by visor, Oct 30, 2011.

?

Is Joaquim Fischer service illegal?

  1. ILLEGAL

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  2. LEGAL

    1 vote(s)
    50.0%
  1. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    The problem I think is that nothing is written about any allowance for adressing the shuttle in the first place once players are ready, or to define "ready".. Which I think is unfortunate to not be able to precisely specify these things in the rules. I think it should really not be to difficult to write the service rules so that they are less open for different interpretations. I think for example that "players ready for serve" should be defined more precise in the rules.
     
  2. Jonc108

    Jonc108 Regular Member

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    The main pt is whether what he is against the rule! You could not legalized it just because he did it ALL THE TIME and maybe some of the players get used to it, rite? What about those not familiar with his "style" and play him the first time??? Blame them for not familiar with JFN's usual cross-the-rule habit???!!! Amazing logic...
     
  3. |_Footwork_|

    |_Footwork_| Regular Member

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    i just said that you could think about changing the rules to some extend.
    whatever the new rules would look like! i don't know...

    well, everyone (!!!) playing JFN for the first time of course knows what his service looks like!
    1. JFN is well known.
    2. pros watch videos of their opponents.
    but that's not the point.

    the point really is:
    should the ref tolerate an action that is (literally) against the rules but totally in line with the "idea of the rule" (whatever that is...;))
     
  4. ghoster4u

    ghoster4u Regular Member

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    Illegal for me to.

    Maybe those that are fine with this serve coz fisher had not yet get an easy point from this illegal serve. so it seems fine, but when he does that when everything change.
     
  5. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    I agree with cobalt that now this is just going in circles. The rules are not always clear on certain situations, but how high are you going to hold each standard of the rule? There has to be room open on service, unless you want everyone to have exactly the same service and fault those who have a bit of difference on their serves. It's hard to sometimes determine what is "legal" and what is "illegal" by how you interpret things. Everyone has their right to their own opinions on this matter whether people agree with it or not.

    If the speed limit says 65 mph on the highway. I am driving 66 mph, do I really deserve that ticket for speeding? Some of you could argue yes and others will argue no. (The law clearly says 65 mph) This is a gray area that people will debate. But like this subject officers will most likely not ticket you for it. As service judges don't fault Fischer on his serve.
     
  6. Jonc108

    Jonc108 Regular Member

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    in every sport, rules are set up to allow people to play on a fair level ground.

    there is no absolute right or wrong, yet it is a line that must be drawn for every one to follow if you are there to participate.

    whatever rule you set up, there would be grey area. so if driving at 66mph is an acceptable grey area to the 65mph limit, why not 67mph? why not 68mph? why not 70mph??? and so on... there would also be grey area to grey area...

    in sports, not like law, there would be discretional area leaving for lawyers to debate because you have no time to do so on the spot!!!

    so you could not say someone is more famous, therefore everyone should know he has a habit in the grey area, therefore he should be allowed!!! otherwise we have to brief new rules to players prior to every game what is particularly about the players.

    there is no perfect rule, but if such relaxation just benefit one player, why should he allowed??? unless everyone agree it is a general need to update a certain rule for the benefit of the common interest.....

    one may say JFN did that all the time not because of any of his born feature (say 3 arms, or 6 fingers...) that is unsurmountable... just because he did not learn the sport as per game rules in the first place.. i.e. pick up a bad habit (if not intentionally to benefit from such potentially distractionary serve...)...
     
  7. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    I just hope JF and his coaches somehow get an idea of how borderline his serve action is. It's a bad habit, that's what it is, and it serves no purpose other than to create debate amongst us BC'ers. :) I would hate to see him get called for it during an important match and then have to learn how to serve mid game.
     
  8. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Of course there are many absolutes for rules in sports!

    A fixed rule may very well exist without any "grey areas"..
    if there is a speedlimit of 66 then 67 and 70 are not allowed 65 and 66 is allowed. it not grey its binary.. >66 or <=66.

    If the rule states the ball is out if the cork does not touch the line then IT is out if the cork does not touch the line etc.. there are no "almost out" or grey area about it at all..

    if you reach 21-18 you win..that is an absolute, no grey area about that.. etc. etc. the examples can go on and on..

    Of course umpires, judges can make misstakes (thats what human does) but I think most grey areas can be eliminated from rules of sport.
     
  9. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

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    Good. Let's start with walkovers. That affects the popularity (and future) of our sport much more than why all the officials yet polled think JF's serve is not such a big deal (and in fact has a pretty straightforward explanation IF some of you want to ever accept it.)

    And if you think only humans make mistakes, check out Hotspot and other technologies that are employed for obscene amounts in other sports. Not watertight, I regret to inform you...

    Now, I wonder where the phrases "arc of tolerance" or "limits of tolerance" or "range of tolerance" originated from? Humans, maybe? Or Vulcans?
     
  10. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    @twobeer: I think you and Jonc108 are saying the same thing. :p
     
  11. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    Walkovers are quite easy actually:

    No one can be "forced" to play so anyone can choice to forfeit a match and thereby accepting a LOSS. SO this is an absolute.. forefit and not play the game = loose.

    Fixed matches, already are and should also be illegal. And there are really no grey areas.. if a match i PROOVED to be fixed and the result has been predetermined, there should be stiff penalties. This is also not only a question for the rules of the game, but also civil-Law issue if people get cheated when gambling money etc on the outcome of fixed-games, matters for judicial system.

    As you state, people do make misstake. Thereffore I beleive rules and regulations should be made as clear and precise as possible, to at least minimze interpretation misstakes and grey areas.
     
  12. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    I'd say, it's illegal based on what I have learned.

     
  13. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    So I came back from a tournament recently, brought this video up to another umpire and asked for his intake on this. He also said that the 1st movement is towards addressing the shuttle, and the fact that this is done consistently, the service judges don't call a fault.
     
  14. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Cool! Good to know. Thanx for asking around and updating us. :)
     
  15. twobeer

    twobeer Regular Member

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    I could see why they not call it but the reasoning seems quite flawed, especially about the "consistency"... What if he strikes it with the first fast forward movement (adressing)?? Would that alos be legal? I cannot see why consitency would be relevant wheather it is legal or not.. I assume a high serve is illigal even if it is consistently high...
     
  16. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    If you wanted to be 100% strict about it, then all players must serve like this:
    1. Position the racket out in front (and hold it still without trembling at all!)
    2. Bring the shuttle from behind (or the side), and place it in front of the racket.
    3. Serve.
    The trouble is that this action is relatively unnatural and most players don't do it. Most players bring the racket and shuttle forwards together as they set up for the serve, and then serve.

    This is one of those areas where a service judge (or umpire) will make a judgement. Consider law 9.2:

    What counts as "once the players are ready for the service"? That's a matter of judgement. The server isn't ready until he has prepared by bringing the racket and shuttle into position.

    The umpire and service judge will assess whether the forwards movement is part of the preparation, or part of the serve. In making this assessment, they are trying to prevent the server from gaining an unfair advantage, but they are also trying to avoid punishing him for the simple act of getting ready to serve.
     
  17. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    added a poll. :)
     
  18. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Thanx! Can you make it so that it's not anonymous? :)
     
  19. CantSmashThis

    CantSmashThis Regular Member

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    ^.


    Would you guys rather have everyone have exactly the same serving motion, that way it's easier to tell what's a fault?

    Everyone has their own natural habits/way of serving. There's no unfair advantage, and would you fault him the whole match if he kept continuing serving like this?
     
  20. nokh88

    nokh88 Regular Member

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    Can you add another option : " Don't give a damn" ?
     

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