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Lee Yong Dae ( 이용대 / 李龙大 ) / Ko Sung Hyun ( 고성현 / 高成铉 )

Discussion in 'Korea Professional Players' started by visor, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Now that JJS has retired and KSH has stepped in to fill in his shoes to partner LYD, this new pairing is still working out the kinks but has definitely shown amazing promise over the past few months.

    Having just recently won the French Open 2012 in MD, they just bowled over Cai/Fu in straight games in the quarter finals in the China Open just minutes ago.

    This new pairing debuted last year at the US Open and Canada Open, and easily won both in MD.

    Both Lee and Ko are great at fast paced attacking games, but they're also incredible at defensive counter-attack. Although both can play both front and back positions, it seems that their favourite formation is still with Lee in front and Ko at the back, as was the case with JJS.

    Here's to many more wins for this new pair. :D
     
  2. nizze

    nizze Regular Member

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    Just my two cents worth, not taking away anything from LYD/KSH, they played really well today against Cai/Fu. However, I thought Cai/Fu were not playing at their usual level. Their game today was rather lack-lustered. I can't feel their fire/urgency to take the initiative, turn the match around and win the game. Hence, it may not be a strong test for the LYD/KSH partnership.

    I agree that this new korean pair shows great promise. Time will tell if their partnership will achieve greater heights.
     
    #2 nizze, Nov 16, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
  3. 241n00b

    241n00b Regular Member

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    anybody know what racket ko used today in the match against cai/fu?
     
  4. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    It looked orangey to me, so MX-JJS?
     
  5. LD rules!

    LD rules! Regular Member

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    Chinese pair are still injured as far as I know, same with Wang Yihan. Need to wait till they're a 100% to fully judge but still promising! :)
     
  6. lilmizsara

    lilmizsara Regular Member

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    No discredit to Ko/Lee as well but I feel that much of the men's doubles field is still undergoing a huge experimentation period with regards to.other countries. Alot of players are still regrouping and recovering post Olympics. The Chinese team is fielding many new pairs with lots of promise for instance. And I felt that Cai and fu have been very off form as was shown by yesterday's match. Til all countries have regrouped and get up to their usual standards then that would be a better test and a good time to judge who's really good.Still Ko and Lee have been doing great. Even the other Korean pairs. However I still do prefer the old partnership of Ko with Yoo Yeon Seong. I felt they were more matched in terms of skill and had better chemistry. So far watching Ko/Lee this past weeks as well as their matches from last year I feel they lack chemistry. But just my two cents. Only time will tell! The matches so far have been very enjoyable.
     
  7. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    I think I have to disagree with you there. LYD's been doing an amazing job keeping Ko's nerves under control, and Ko's been responding. If that isn't good chemistry, then I don't know what is. Ko looked far more comfortable yesterday than he has before, even if there's still a way to go.
    Don't forget that LYD's been the maknae up 'til now too :p
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    yep, agree with you here...

    when ko makes a tactical mistake, lee immediately tells him afterwards what he should have done instead... instant feedback... and ko nods his head in understanding... them being closer in age makes it easier for them to bond

    they are improving in leaps and bounds together and especially ko over the last few months that i've seen them play, against the thai pair, koo/tan, cai/fu, their own kor pairs, ina pairs etc
     
  9. lilmizsara

    lilmizsara Regular Member

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    Yes I've been observing that as well. Lee being able to keep Ko's nerves under control - cause the latter has the habit of getting abit nervous, loses confidence and then makes very simple unforced errors. I think the instant feedback is working great! However, where I disagree with you is that I personally don't call that chemistry. That - to ME - is just simply communication/feedback between partners; which is absolutely essential but is something that sometimes alot of players forget to do for each other whilst being so caught up in the game and in their own emotions. Lee is aware enough of the situation and his partner to do that. So that's great team-work!

    And whilst Lee has always been the maknae, he's always been the seonbae/senior too, especially to most of the players on the current team - including Ko, although Ko is a year older, which would explain why Ko listens alot to him.

    Anyways, just thought I had to explain myself better - the 'chemistry' I was referring to is the kind of magic between partners that doesnt require much communication. Both players are able to read each other so well that both know where the other is without having to look, they just instinctively know who is gonna take the shot in ambiguous situations etc. It's a very instinctive thing and creates a sort of 'magic' between the partners where they just play off each other's strengths and build up the game for each other. Examples would be Cai/Fu Bo/Moegensen and even the Thai pair, Bodin/Issara imo. Chemistry sometimes just happens like that, but sometmes it requires time to build up, which is why I said that more time is needed for this Ko/Lee pairing to see if they have that sort of chemistry, although they are already doing great now. Anyway just my 2 cents.
     
  10. abedeng

    abedeng Regular Member

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    Nothing Lee could do for Ko yesterday - he was almost totally isolated out of the game by the clever Danish combination.

    The Danes used their right and left hand combination to full effect, triangulating Ko with rapid fire from left and right.
     
  11. KB@TB Em

    KB@TB Em Regular Member

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    As already been said, I think they just need some time (i mean look how long BoMo, Koo/Tan or Cai/Fu play together). Therefore they already achieved nice results (FO won, CO runner-up out of 3 tourneys + winning to GPG). And losing to Koo/Tan in a close match is ok, because the Malaysians can beat everyone if they are inform and fighting (BoMo lost to them in DO!!!).
    We also have to see whether Cai/Fu can get back to their Olympic form... So in my opinion the MD field is really interesting and open. BoMo played amazing, but they can also lose in early stages as seen this year. Koo/Tan depending on their fighting spirit and will. Bodin/Issara belong to top 5 at least i think, as well as Kim/Kim.
    The latest tournaments already showed that Lee/Ko can get to SF easily if they don´t meet any of the above named.
    Still there problem is that they are seeded low, so if they are unlucky they meet above named early until they get to top 10.
    But I´m sure they will win a lot. The match against BoMo showed where Ko has to work on. And if he gets his nerves under control, they could become the best MD pair I believe (there strength has been described in earlier post already). I, for sure, will root for them.
     
  12. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    I agree with most of the points made above. Seeing them play in a number of matches it seems obvious to me that Ko needs to work on a few areas to be able to bring out the best in the pair.

    In contrast to JJS and LYD who had arguably the best defense I have seen on a badminton court, it seems that Ko would need to develop a better defense to iron out any weakness in the new paring. Not that he has a bad defense, but it is certainly not as exceptional as JJS and more importantly, notably weaker than LYD’s defense - giving opponents a weakness to exploit.

    Ko has a great smash, very good power and control and with his height, he has more angle and variation than JJS. I have noticed however that he seems to need a fraction more time in order to get his body into position to play an decent smash. Again, JJS with his smaller build and better agility was able to execute a decent smash seemingly in the most awkward situations even when off balance. This is not a major problem for them, as he makes up for this with his better reach, although it may be an area to watch.

    Someone mentioned that Ko can be nervous and to me, understandably so as it is quite evident given the number of unforced errors coming from his racquet. I’m sure he’s well aware of the shoes he is having to fill and the pressure as people would undoubtedly be comparing him to JJS. But as their relationship and understanding of each other’s game develops, this will hopefully resolve itself. At the moment though, LYD seems to be taking control and leading as well as having to increase his work rate to make up the small deficit as they find their feet.

    I’m really looking forward to seeing this pair develop. There is a lot of potential here as is already proven. We may well be looking at the next dominance in mens doubles especially as Cai/Fu are nearing retirement.
     
  13. lilmizsara

    lilmizsara Regular Member

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    I agree with alot of things you guys mentioned above.

    I also dont think there was much that Lee could have done to save the Final. The Danes when they are on-fire are pretty unbeatable imho. Their left-right hand combination as someone mentioned above makes for very lethal attacking play. And when both of them are on-form (providing Boe isnt making defensive mistakes), they are very difficult to beat. They are one of the MD pairs I really really enjoy watching.

    About Ko, like R20190 mentioned, he seems to need a fraction of a second more to get into place before smashing. And while I do agree that he has immense power and the angles he can get when he is in position is fantastic, sometimes actually, I dont feel that his smashes make a lot of impact on the game - or at least not as much as I feel it should - for a player with such immense power in his smashing. Sometimes, his smashes are anticipated and relatively easily defended by opponents. I used to watch the Ko/Yoo pairing quite alot, and I thought this issue was already present then. Plus, he seems to panic and then run out of ideas when his attacks don't work and then.. he gets nervous - and makes mistakes. and yes, this nerves thing that Ko suffers from was already there when he was paired with Yoo. It's just become more apparent since he has been paired with Lee. His body language during the Finals two days ago wasn't very positive, he mostly looked hesitant and defeated. The thing that is abit worrying about this is that his nervousness etc is a psychological barrier, and this takes slightly longer than usual to iron out - if ever. So hopefully there is someone on the team that can address such issues that players might have. These are just my observations.

    But yes, the MD field is very open and interesting, it will be very exciting to see how the different teams develop and grow.
     
    #13 lilmizsara, Nov 19, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  14. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yeah, BoMoe were really on fire at the just finished China Open and just really picked on Ko's inexperience.

    As already mentioned by several posters, Ko seems a tad less nimble around the court, especially when forced to rush from the rear right to his rear left to hit any overhead shots. IMO that's the price he pays for being so muscular (he is probably the most muscular amongst all the pro players, even Gail Clark keeps mentioning what a strong strapping young athlete he is :p) that he's carrying more mass that slows him down.

    But what I don't understand is why his smashes are not that deadly despite all the muscles. Even JJS hits harder than him!
     
    #14 visor, Nov 19, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2012
  15. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Just happened across the HK Open 2012 match list for today (ie Nov 20 in HK now), and this pair being unseeded has to play twice today in qualification rounds!
     
  16. Licin

    Licin Regular Member

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    In my opinion, JJS hits harder might be due to JJS is in better position as a result of JJS able to position himself better. JJS able to position himself better, due to JJS is more agile than KO, not to mention KO has problem to handle his nervousness. KO needs to improve his speed in order to hit the shuttle faster hence give him more advantage on position and timing.

    In my honest opinion, KO undergoes strength training, which resulted in bulking up his body up with muscles. The problem with bulking up is that the process naturally will also result on increase in Body Fat as well which made him slower on court. Therefore, after KO reaches optimal level , KO will have to undergo cutting process in which shed the layer of body fat while still maintaining muscles. As a result, KO will be faster yet still powerful which will be his opponent's nightmare.
     
  17. Tactim

    Tactim Regular Member

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    As said above I'm fairly surprised that even when Ko does have time, he doesn't seem to have he same power that JJS has despite his smaller build. He definitely looks the most muscular of all the Korean players. Perhaps it's a very subtle technique issue or something that's preventing him from fully utilizing his body to hit a smash. Recently I haven't really seem him hit over 265+ in the last two tournaments. That said he does get great angle on his smash. I personally think his loss to Bo/Mo will be very constructive towards this new partnership because without defeat, the partnership wouldn't be exposed to some of the weaknesses that Ko possesses. But now I'm sure they will be hard at work to improve quickly. I look forward to their next tournament as they are without a doubt the hottest new MD pair right now !
     
  18. lilmizsara

    lilmizsara Regular Member

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    HAHA! yes. i've heard Gill Clark mention his build/size or "powerful legs" at least 5 or 6 times already haha.

    I agree with all that muscular mass thing slowing him down.

    This was what I thought too. The bulking up works well to some extent but it actually slows the person down after awhile. I'm not that great with weight training knowledge, but I do know the bulky players I used to play with aren't the fastest and surprisingly not the 'strongest' too. Also, I do think smashing has alot to do with technique. I'm not sure which discussion was this on another thread here on BC, but i think being the "strongest" or the "bulkiest" doesn't necessarily translate into someone being the best smasher. Leaner players like Carsten Moegensen smash really well and sharp, but aren't bulky in physique.

    Yes, JJS gets himself into position very quickly and covers the back court really well imo. I've seen Ko struggle when he jump-smashes on the right, and the opponent lifts it to the left, he can't seem to recover or move fast enough to get into position. This lack of speed essentially cancels out any potential threat his smashes might make.

    Hopefully the team works something out physical-wise. I think I'd be more concerned with Ko's psychological barriers on-court. Besides the nerves and mental block, there's also a very unbalanced dynamic between him and Lee. At least from what I've observed - he tends to look very apologetic to Lee whenever he makes a mistake and also has the tendency to display 'submissive' body language in relative to Lee's. I think for a doubles pairing to work well, the team dynamics need to be relatively equal, and not one partner feeling inferior or feeling he/she is playing a 'second lead' role to the other.

    having to play 2 qualifications in a row sounds tiring!
     
  19. ah tat

    ah tat Regular Member

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    i believe ko has a harder smash. but jjs has a more explosive smash. i think thats the key difference between their smashes.
     
  20. SigH-Max

    SigH-Max Regular Member

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    My favorite MD pair now :) It was painful to see them lose that hard in the China open, but well. The Danes were really solid.
    Hopefully KSH/LYD will be #1 at some point. 71 more to go !
    And now they can try to win the HK open, the Danes are not there :p
     

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