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Lee Yong Dae ( 이용대 / 李龙大 ) / Ko Sung Hyun ( 고성현 / 高成铉 )

Discussion in 'Korea Professional Players' started by visor, Nov 16, 2012.

  1. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    Sure, I may be dreaming, but you must be smoking, your car's tailpipe. Shin is not too slow but his attack is relatively very weak (did you watch their victory at the Denmark Open a few months ago?), Yoo's defense is far better than Ko's as is Kim's. Sure Ko makes winners but how impressive is 5 killer smashes during a set if you make 10 unforced errors. I've already noted that Ko has the hardest smashes so there's no credit for you to first state I am dreaming and then reiterate my point.

    And it does not take two to lose. It takes two to win. Do you never play with uneven pairings? And all of this your comment before watching the game. "Watched the semis today and bla bla bla" when my post was regarding the final. Or are/were you the type to speak up in class and give your opinion on a book that you didn't even read.
     
  2. george@chongwei

    george@chongwei Regular Member

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    Was watching in the stadium yesterday.. And to sum it up , i would say ina pair especially hendra was playing very well through out the whole match.. He as usual is very clever at the net and didn't lift the shuttle up unneccesary for the Koreans to play offensively which is the Korean pair's favourite formation.. Therefore, you don't see smashes from the KOR in the final than their previous other matches;)
     
  3. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    jjashik: Although Ko has his faults, of the two Koreans on court, Ko was the better. LYD didn't look engaged in the game, and his usual forward momentum seemed MIA; the moments he did come forward were forced, and often put Ko in a difficult situation.

    As for Kim Sa Rang being a better partner for LYD, this is far from the truth, as you can see from his results. I agree completely that KSR has an awesome potential and a vast talent, but when he can't consistently produce results with either his mixed or doubles partner, you realise he's short something important. You can see what it is when you watch his loosing games; his despondency when he's losing, and the inability to turn a first set win into a match win because he fails to play a second set like his winning first.
     
  4. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    You might've read my post about the final if it bothers you so much....also, I didn't comment on the final in that post. I explained why Ko is a much better partner for Lee than those you mentioned. And yes, I've seen Yoo/Shin win the DO, and I've seen Ko/Yoo play many times before. Yoo's defense is weaker than Ko's as he is unable to adapt, not as quick on his feet and thus gets caught either too deep in court or on the side he isn't prepared to defend quite often.
    Shin is WAY slower than Ko. I agree he is a fine MD player but he can smash about the same as LYD - a few very good smashes, but no way to keep it up the whole match.

    Of course I play in uneven pairings, hence my comment. If the weaker partner can play at the level of the opponents, you will win. If he can't, it depends on whether they can use his weakness or not. Yesterday, the Indonesians used LYD quite well.

    And if your post, demanding a change in partnership, was JUST about the Final then it was incredibly immature - after all you'd have to change every partnership in the sport after their first loss if we followed your 'logic'.
     
  5. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    The IND pair were indeed playing very well. But to say that LYD/JJS would have lost as well is a bit of a bold statement.

    I think given that KO/LYD were obviously not on form (they're only human!), it is difficult to judge that. I would say that if both pairs were on form LYD/KO it would have been much closer, and would probably have beaten the IND pair. LYD was far from his solid self, the number of unforced errors coming from his racquet is something I have not seen from him in a long time.

    In doubles, you are affected not only by who you play against but also who you play with. Your confidence grows as you know that you can rely on your partner in difficult situations or to count on them to set you up. LYD has always had great vision and creativity which he could exploit because JJS was an extremely consistent/reliable and effective rear court player it allowed LYD to give his undivided attention to the mid-court/net. He needn’t worry too much about the rear, it was like brick wall behind him, this allowed him to be creative and play at ease. In the defensive formation, JJS was pretty much equal to LYD and because there was no weakness between them, they were able to counterattack quite frequently – not so in the new pairing which is a big deficit.

    Ko is not a bad player, he’s probably the best partner for LYD in the current KOR team. Given that LYD/KO are still getting used to each other, I get the sense that LYD is not feeling totally comfortable yet and as you “feed” off each other in doubles, I’m sure this would have had an effect on Ko too. Usually, you’d see one person as the “lead”… previously it was JJS as the leader, he was seen as a bit of a mentor to LYD, someone who he would depend on and knows would watch his back. Now LYD is the “lead” I feel he’s a little out of his comfort zone.

    Yes Ko was playing well in the match but he has been throughout the tournament (bar a few unforced errors!). I think what Ko needs is a little bit of arrogance. He’s too nice a person and a little passive. He needs to believe he’s the best to be the best.

    Overall I think it was just an off-day for the pair. Not discrediting Ahsan/Set, they played exceptionally well and deserved to win. But I can’t help but think a 2011/2012 LYD/JJS would have beaten them.
     
  6. josephdk

    josephdk Regular Member

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    At least Ko/Lee will have at least a month to rest before they go to the England Open.
     
  7. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    I'm sure they won't be resting! Plenty to work on before the AE!
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    @ R20190: yah, my statement was a bit tongue in cheek. :) But I don't agree with your point about Jung being the leader to Lee... In fact, it's the other way around... despite Lee being younger. You can see this during the breaks during their previous games. Lee is the one talking and guiding Jung.
     
  9. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Agree with you on Ko being too nice, to be truly successful he needs to get a bit more confident and being a bit cocky doesn't hurt. Although I find it nice to have a true sportsman in the Top MD ranks :)

    Just like Visor I have a different opinion on JJS/LYD - JJS was not the leader, rather he was the very, very solid base on which LYD could build. Nearly no errors from Jung and his impressive court couverage LYD could commit fully to the front and once and again intercept something exceptional. With Ko he doesn't seem to have the same confidence in his partner, opting for more neutral positioning rather than aggressively moving into the net quite often.
     
  10. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    It's not the age, Ko is older than LYD too if I recall correctly - although not by much. Also, don't think that just because one is more vocal/expressive that they must be the leader. You can never be sure what is being said by looking at them, he may simply be just sharing his observations.

    You may be right, but this is the feeling I get and think I also interpreted it from LYD's answers in some interview I came across.
     
  11. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Nah, Lee is the megastar not Jung, and Lee is the one with the most battle experience and wins in his career including his junior years.
     
  12. KB@TB Em

    KB@TB Em Regular Member

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    Amazing how controversial everyone is after just a few tournaments of the new partnership...
    They won quite a lot since they started and so far they beat all other pairs than BoMo, HS/MA and KKK/TBH convincingly!!
    They already won a SS and SSP, and many other great results.

    They had a bad day and the Indonesians played as good as never before in their partnership! Imo LYD was way away from his normal form.

    I think Ko is the best partner for LYD. They played almost only tournaments together and no time to have intense training...
    I think we have to wait for the AE, Surdiman Cup, WC to really judge on the Koreans.
    I´m confident they´ll win many big tournaments! Don´t forget last week they beat the MD pair of the moment, inform BoMo (even it was on homesoil)!!!!!
     
  13. diverdan

    diverdan Regular Member

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    It's a strange relationship. Ko seems to be a bit in awe of Lee and apologises for mistakes far too often. Lee rarely says sorry and just gets on with it. I really think Ko is feeling a lot of pressure to perform and Lee is not adapting well to his new partner. Lee is a mid-court / net specialist and for this pair to perform Ko needs to be booming down the smashes. Ko's flat game is a weaknesse and Lee's attitude towards his new partner needs to lighten up. Ko also needs to take the lead as that is what Lee is used to. Jungs maturity on court was a big influence on Lee. I think this pair will get better through time if Ko can improve his flat game and defence. Ko just needs to believe!!
     
  14. zamrioo2

    zamrioo2 Regular Member

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    JJS & LYD is like Hendra & Ahsan... Ahsan always seeking advise and view from Hendra in games
     
  15. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    Ok, deep breath...

    Some here have made, what also seems to me, certain correct assessments of the final game and partnership. But as a devoted fan (as a middle-aged korean guy who plays, not as a LYD-crazed screaming teen girl), the game, NOT the loss itself, was lid-blowing.

    Before I continue and explain, my premise from my experience (of being coached in another sport for many years and currently teach badminton to kids (7-9)):
    -competition/tournament is NOT the time to train, it is time to play/perform.
    -between equal level players, and most certainly at the top, psychology and strategy play critical roles.

    Hence, my great frustration is that even if Ko is the best partner (I think he's the player with the most powerful attack and physique) there appears to be insufficient improvement in the psychological level. And while some here think Lee/Ko have only been together a few months, the more knowledgeable will know that they played together when Jung was in military service (playing badminton btw, not shooting guns). Plus they have played/trained together on the national team for years. When they play and win tournaments vs weaker pairs, he is not put under pressure. But against top players, he seems to succumb to the pressure and is unable to overcome it during the match.

    I obviously don't know whether it's him or the coaching regarding his mental play, but the coach definitely should have been screaming to go to plan B and stop taking on Setiawan at the net. Many have commented on his superb game. I think half is to his credit, and half is to KOR who kept on feeding him shuttles to kill/intercept.

    Team Lee/Ko and KOR obviously don't need to explain themselves to us. But it seems additional coaching input to the team (someone qualified; not me) would help a lot, maybe even Jung himself, though Don Hearne reported is still playing in national league. Surely, they have enough past champions (including Kim Dong Moon) and sports psychologists to get Ko up to his full potential.
     
  16. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    ps, for those elevating Ko over his former parter Yoo YS, consider Ko/Yoo vs LYD/JJS is 4-4. And please don't tell me that's cuz LYD/JJS couldn't handle Ko's defense, pschhhhh!
     
  17. jjashik

    jjashik Regular Member

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    That should have read "handle Ko's offense" not defense.
     
  18. SolsticeOfLight

    SolsticeOfLight Regular Member

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    jjashik: Whilst you're correct in mentioning Ko's mentality, I think it's important to notice the progress he's already made in the few months they've been together. He now stands confidently beside LYD, and when he makes a mistake, he'll apologise, but not with the same feeling of inadequacy that was plain to see in his earlier games.
    If you were wanting an overnight wonder, then Ko falls short, but if you're looking to the future, you just have to say there's a lot of potential, and also that they're moving in the right direction.
     
  19. MonkeyMadness

    MonkeyMadness Regular Member

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    Oh dear they went out in the first round of the all england! I think they are a good pair and may prove to be amazing in years to come but i would love to see LYD partner shinBC for a few tournements just to see how they get on. I think shin is very underated. I hope his partnership with Yoo works out but LYD would be a great partner!
     
  20. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    They probably would - but from what I've heard (and seen at the German Open) it wasn't Ko Sung Hyun's fault. LYD actually was the weak link, making a lot of errors, quite a few of the unforced. At the GO, he lost the battle for the net and some driving exchanges against Liu/Qiu, and while they're a good attacking pair, they shouldn't even be a challenge for LYD in those departments. Let's hope it's just a minor lapse in form for him!
     

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