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Let's conclude it, Lin Dan is the best MS baddy player in human history.

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by Wong8Egg, Mar 9, 2009.

  1. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    nod.
    I was also surprised dat no one commented on LD 'improvement' in this 09 WC.
    Even if lcw had beaten SDK to advance to the next match with LD, the LD i saw last week make me to say that LD was fully prepared and have the answers to neurtralize lcw's weapons even if lcw didn't failed mentally for a comfortable 2 game match.

    LD knows that if lcw played 100%, lcw is the man he has to work and train to beat for the WC title.
     
  2. tony531

    tony531 Regular Member

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    i disagree with this, how do you know this is what lin dan thinks/knows?

    imo, i think that a 100% LCW couldn't beat a 80% Lin Dan, they are of different class... just look at the championship comparisons... n also the win/lose encounters between them, especially in the major competitions.
    LCW has a very very long way to go....
     
  3. Gladius

    Gladius Regular Member

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    There really is no basis on who is ' the best ' at the respective eras and compared across generations. There are just too many variances between them to make a sound comparison.

    People might say LD is faster, stronger etc compared to legends like Hartono and TXH, LSK etc. But equipment has changed so dramatically between these periods, court conditions, nutrition all make drastic differences to what kind of court play is possible. Ever tried doing a 'chop smash' using a 250g wooden racket and 16lb string tensions ? Or play on lacquered wood floors with canvas shoes that have all but 10mm worth of rubber sole and support?

    What if top modern players like LD, LCW and say TH were transported back in time, to the time of Hartono, Wong Peng Soon, TXH ? And played against these players using equipment and court conditions of that time ? Wooden rackets, cotton apparel, canvas shoes, wooden lacqured floors and all. Would they be able to play at their current levels, much less styles which make them such excellent players ? I seriously do not believe so. They will be forced to adapt the style which best suits the equipment available of that era. And would they still be able to beat those legendary greats ? I would say there really is no certain answer to it, as it would be a hard fight.

    That being said, the many people in this thread say LD 'is the best' simple because he's the best player they have witnessed to date and of the current era. But have they witnessed the various other legends at their prime ?

    I had the rarefield opportunity to witness Zhao Jianhua on form and extremely motivated at the Singapore Open back in '92. Watched the Quarters, Semi's and Finals all courtside. It was a superlative performance which I have not witnessed in the years since. Based on that tournament alone, I would say LD would not have beaten ZJH at near his prime. He is one of the rare few players in history which his peers openly admit that his best, he was simply untouchable ( I quote Ardy Wiranata on this) . The other being TXH. I have not heard such superlative praise for LD from his peers.

    So would I consider ZJH the best player in history then ? No, because there will always be someone who will come along to dominate his era of competition.

    There really is no direct comparison, but each 'legend' was the best of his era, move beyond that, there is no basis for comparison, too many variables change between eras.
     
  4. pejantan

    pejantan Regular Member

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    for me....ZJH and TH is the best player ever, entertainer....overall both is genius...
    but Lindan is a hard worker, he rely on phisical condition....he is not genius
     
  5. tony531

    tony531 Regular Member

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    Are u serious man...
    Lin Dan has taken badminton to a whole new level...
    you must be joking...
     
  6. pejantan

    pejantan Regular Member

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    bout lin dan, honestly i quote from our local newspaper....in press conference he told that his achievement prove that he wasnt a genius player but a hard worker, it sound like LD want everyone honored his achievement as a result of training not just a gift from god

    personally i agree with his comment, before...i thinx he just an arogan player, but now he is more mature, maybe he realized that he is not talented as ZJH and TH ....trained hard, work hard is everything
     
  7. Joyous

    Joyous Regular Member

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    [/SIZE]

    If LD is arrogant, he would have claimed he is a genius. An ordinary stone no matter how you try to polish it will
    never be a diamond. An uncut, unpolished diamond when
    'polished/refined' through time will be a sparkling diamond. As his coach, Tang puts it - a rare gem.
     
  8. yourbestfriend

    yourbestfriend Regular Member

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    what does this have to do with anything?
    it doesn't matter if he is a natural talent or he works hard, the point is that he's still regarded as one of the greatest, if not the greatest players to ever pick up a racket.

    edit: you say that he is not as talented as TH or ZJH, but he has almost accomplished more than both of them combined, so with that logic, wouldn't you say that LD is better than both of them?
     
    #148 yourbestfriend, Aug 19, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2009
  9. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

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    IMO, the super physical ability of LD's is also a gift from God. TH and LD are both talented by in different aspect. But LD is the better with his achievements. :cool:
     
  10. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    wow, best player AND entertainer huh? big accolade i must. How is ZJH the best badminton entertainer. I know TH is. A few long time INA frens of mine even told me to my face, TH is a clown.
     
  11. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    since TH winning record is pretty good but not great, pejantan need to invent new category to put TH in for his idol, an entertainer, lol. Same marketing tactic use by car manufacturers, 'best in its class'. Hmmm, what kind of entertainer who walks out on a match, no show on so many tournaments and charity functions, (while with pbsi), teasing the audience, bickering with pbsi, etc
     
    #151 cooler, Aug 20, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  12. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    1. hey young pejantan, this is what we human call humbleness and modesty.
    So only gift from god is call greatness? What happen to TH lately, he not winning, did god took back the gift lol Maybe coz he isn't a good boy anymore?

    2. so LD is a cocky arrogant hard worker... Hmm, so rare, since i haven't met such person in my lift before. LOLOLOL Hey, this is still better than being a LAZY GIFTED genius like TH lol
     
    #152 cooler, Aug 20, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  13. TaRaKaN

    TaRaKaN Regular Member

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    Let's just get a poll set up =) That should answer EVERYTHING :)
     
  14. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    There might not be 1 basis to measure who is the best but one could draw conclusion if several measures are considered. Today’s players are indeed faster and stronger than before because of more conditioning and training. I can say LD had put him more training time than previous greats. In general to conclude that today pros are faster and stronger than previous generations of pros is not a stretch or an exaggeration. Even if LD wore the old dragonfly shoes, he’ll still be faster and dive better than any pros decades ago. Previous pros play more for personal interest than today’s pros. There are more stakes and rewards to being a pro today. More reasons to train harder.

    What if all of TXH’s, LYB’s, etc experience and knowledge were put into mo lding LD? Wouldn’t that enough to say LD is a super protégé of previous badminton greats? I know LD is not like the individual TXH or ZJH, but isn’t having the best features of them makes an even more superior player?


    Then u should open your ears more. Have u heard of ‘Super Dan’? Have u heard Gillian Clark , who’s a commentator for so many tournaments, saying ‘LD oozes confidence and dominance in the court?’ I guess u haven’t.

    U r correct in this regard, his name is lin dan.



    Back then, rudy hartono, L. Swie King, Frost, Yang yang, ZJH, etc were the tops but they only have a few foes. Today, top players have to contest against many many formidable foes.
    LD had fought TH, LCW, peter gade, SDK, chen hong, chen jin, BCL, LHI, Park SH, and being a level ahead of them is what make LD great.
     
  15. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    no it won't. U have to factor in the nationalities distribution of BF members.
    The poll results will be predictable as tomorrow's sun rise.

    Badmintoncentral.com users come from these countries:
    21.7% United States
    15.7% India
    12.7% Malaysia
    8.4% Indonesia
    7.3% Singapore
    7.1% Japan
    4.6% United Kingdom
    3.7% Canada
    2.7% Pakistan
    2.5% Thailand
    1.8% Australia
    1.3% Philippines
    1.2% China
    1.1% New Zealand
    1.0% Germany
    1.0% Sri Lanka
    0.8% Vietnam
    0.7% Hong Kong
    0.6% Netherlands
    0.5% Belgium
    3.7% OTHER
     
    #155 cooler, Aug 20, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  16. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    The debate will continue..

    ..personally, on the last part, i only count LCW, TH, PG and CH on equal par with LinDan. The others are in a level below..Esp. now, with the MS field, arguably, watered-down with only LCW as the real challenger to LD, it makes it even more debatable if LinDan is the "best MS baddy player in human history". Another thing to consider is the use of the NSS in the 2nd half of this decade. Would LD have the same succes if the scoring system had stayed the same from 2006 til now? Remember also, LD didn't start his string of success until the implementation of the NSS.
    Players in the olden days, IMO, had more challengers or quality opponents and they had to play using the OSS.
    ..that stat has changed a few times. For one, India wasn't even in the top 3, say a yr ago but all of a sudden it's now in the top 3?!?!..Yeah, we can thank the 2009 WC, can't we??..;)
     
  17. jug8man

    jug8man Regular Member

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    the tv commentators said it best.... WORLD best MS player of the modern era. indisputable
     
    #157 jug8man, Aug 20, 2009
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2009
  18. jug8man

    jug8man Regular Member

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    LCW however is best MS player of the EVER (NOT JUST modern era) of MALAYSIA. So Malaysians.... deal with it
     
  19. jug8man

    jug8man Regular Member

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    I agree. These are truly top players. Both in level and worldwide reputation. Of course still, in the end... it would seem that none are truly in the same league with LD.

    I would like to include the following players... Not the best all the time, but when they did make their mark,... Lin Dan was still there to snuff them out:-

    -Kenneth Johansen (former world no. 1 or 2 at some point i believe)
    -Boonsak Ponsana (had so much giant killer potential)
    -Wong Choon Hann (at his prime, wrested the China Open title,..... only for China to avenge greatly with the coming of Lin Dan)
    -Hafiz Hashim (ooops)
     
  20. Gladius

    Gladius Regular Member

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    Like I said, there is no direct comparison. You chose and picked those points which are valid for your arguments, then its not valid an argument. Rackets and strings make equally a big difference, much less to note the courts, the attire, the shuttles available then. You honestly believe LD can play the way he plays given those equipment of "back then" ? You're seriously deluded in that idea or you're just trying to make a point for your argument without a sound basis.

    Try taking a wooden racket that weighs in at about 200grams, wooden shaft, natural gut strings at 12-16lbs. Aeroplane shuttles of that era that's like the super cheap grade shuttles in the stores, today and try doing a 100% jump smash as you would do with a ArcSaber 10 or Mp99. Then let me know how well you fare. .... Or yah, don't forget the Double Happiness canvas shoes, and 'rugby grade' cotton top and bermuda shorts to go with the flow.

    Then try playing the 'old' 15 points system. And let us know truthfully how it feels compared to the equipment you're using now.

    Truth of the matter is that in badminton as in any sports, "greatness" is something which is defined by the social climate of the times. There is no clear benchmark. And also as in any sports, usually hard work will get you the most consistent results. But having worked with some of the most talented sports people I've seen in various sports, namely badminton and cycling as well as cross-country running, I can say 'talent' means as much as pure hard work at the very highest levels. Had a personal friend who at junior under-14 beat a certain (later to be World no. 1 ) Wong Choon Hann at a regional junior tournament. And he certainly had 'talent', as personified in the way he plays and approaches the game. Unfortunately circumstances prevailed and he gave up badminton for his studies.

    LD is a talent, who with hard work has achieved a whole lot more than all his other peers of the current generation. However, its not always been clear whether he's been considered a 'naturally talented' player. Such players only come around once a decade or so. And in my eyes, he's not in that category. I would say he's a closer clone to Yang Yang. Athletic, determined and hardworking. But he certainly doesn't play the game as a 'natural' player would, certainly not 'the greatest'.

    That being said, all the experience of the past masters amount to nothing if the player has not the ability to absorb it. Having these 'masters' to train him doesn't automatically make him a great player. Does having Liszt and Chopin being your piano teachers make you the best piano player too ? Not by a long shot...

    To me, a great player is one who can lift the game to such scintillating heights, even the opponent much less the audience have nothing but grant utter respect and submit to the 'greatness'. One who brings a whole new dimension to the otherwise 'mundane'.

    There will always be 'great ' and 'legends' once in a generation. But there will never be a 'greatest ever'. :rolleyes:
     

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