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Li Yong Bo dares to critize others that follow his mastery of WalkOver tactics

Discussion in 'Thomas / Uber Cup Finals 2012' started by indrg, May 27, 2012.

  1. chibe_K

    chibe_K Regular Member

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    "...Although China, with the largest number of players on the circuit, are more likely than other nations to meet compatriots in matches, complaints have been filed with the Badminton World Federation (BWF).

    In response, the BWF promised to record all matches from the quarter-finals stage onwards to look into irregularities and suspect retirements.

    “If compelling evidence is found of any irregularities, the matter will be treated with the utmost gravity by the BWF and severe penalties will be imposed,” a statement last year said.

    So far no further action has been taken.

    ..."

    Does it have to be that obvious and blunt....LOL
     
  2. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    LYB is missing the point.

    There is very little strategic (if any) value for anyone in purposely withdrawing / retiring against players from another team.
    But a lot of potential value for the team in doing the same when two players / pairs of the team meet each other.

    So, the following quote from the article is the crux of the matter:
    "The study found that just over 20 percent of matches between Chinese players were not completed. But when Chinese shuttlers met other nations, the number of retirements and walkovers plummeted to 0.74 percent."

    Although we know it to be true but we never had the numbers. Now we have the numbers that show (if the numbers are accurate) significant discrepancy. Chinese shuttlers tend to give walkovers / retirements roughly 20% more when meeting own teammates than when meeting other players.
     
  3. Jimmy_Goh

    Jimmy_Goh Regular Member

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    "Why, when both Indonesian women’s singles withdraw in one tie and also Lee (Chong Wei), there is no attention on that? Three in one day and nothing,” said Li after his women’s team qualified for the Uber Cup final in Wuhan this week" . . . quote Li Yong Bo
    I just wonder if it is fair for LYB to include Lee Chong Wei. Everyone with eyes can see that LCW is injured in court, all except LYB. LYB is really an axxhxxx
     
  4. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    The point is the 2 withdrawn through injuries were fit enough to play again within 24 hours.
    So bold that if LYB not dire to try.

    And what BwF did about that, absolutely nothing
     
  5. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    KOREA did some creative pairing a few years ago and forced BwF to change the rule.
    INDONESIA probably forced BwF to change the rule again,

    you just can't have someone withdrawn from injuries and back the next day.
    One solution is for any injuries there is a mandatory 4 weeks resting/recovery period, say.
    You are not allow to play again within the 4 weeks period.
     
  6. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Hmm, both Maria Febe Kusumastuti and Lindaweni Fanetri supposedly retired injured and the very next day they were playing again, I was puzzled and taken aback. Yet, this matter was little discussed in our forum.

    But if the Chinese were to do that,they would be booed and lambasted for cowardice,lacking in fighting spirit,irresponsibility,being disgraceful,shameful and be called all sorts of names - clearly a case of double standards and hypocrisy.

    For those who are quick to jump on China but not their own kind would do well to bear in mind the age-old Confucian adage:"Do not do to others what you do not want done to yourself". And hypocrites ought to know,when you say a thing is wrong when others do it,it is also wrong when you do it.

    Yes,make it mandatory that those who cite injury as the reason for withdrawal or retirement should be banned for the rest of the tournament at least.
     
  7. bad's fan

    bad's fan Regular Member

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    the retirement of ina's WS players seems to be part of strategy, they maybe want to save more energy to face another team in QF than fighting with china team who tend to win 5-0 over them. and if that's the case, i think the word cowardice,lacking in fighting spirit,irresponsibility,being disgraceful,shameful (quoted from Justin L.'s) are appropriate on them too as to the chinese.

    about LCW, i don't know why LYB mention him too. btw, how is his condition right now?
     
  8. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    You know what the difference is. CHN does it consistently.

    To point out similar behaviour by other teams, you need to dig hard to find incidences done by KOR some years ago, for example. Or even bring out fake examples like LCW retiring, because there are just not enough evidence to pile up.

    It is disingenuous to equate what CHN does with what other teams do, just when some other team show one or two instances of the same, as if it somehow vindicates CHN.
     
  9. xming

    xming Regular Member

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    Aiyah, normal lah, rules can be manipulated but cannot be broken. In game, business or life, this how things work. But compare to other players, China players like Lin Dan previously with low sportsmanship compare to Lee, Taufik or Bonsak.

    Also most China players are chickens, not dare to play as many tournaments as possible. LCW is the best for participating most of the super series and he deserve to pocket all the price money :)

    But anyway, lately Lin Dan have been improving his sportsmanship by giving/exchanging souvenirs with his opponent in a match. Perhaps he's getting to know there're more then just winning in games.
     
  10. event

    event Regular Member

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    Are you sure? I'm pretty sure the last two Olympic qualifiers from Korea - Jung/Kim and Shon Wan Ho - got some of the points they needed through walkover wins over compatriots in 2011. As is always the case with walkovers, you can argue that they would have won anyway but it is obvious from hindsight in these cases that since they barely got enough points to qualify, they wouldn't have done so if not for those wins.
     
  11. Aikachan

    Aikachan Regular Member

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    What la you Oldman LYB :D

    Even though he didnt see LCW get injured, Im pretty sure he cant miss the news of LCW's injury the next day, especially the pics where LCW grimaced in pain, and CRIED, even wheeled out of the tourney. All these not enough credentials to prove LCW didnt fake retirement?? Should LCW email his ankle scan to him?
     
  12. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Did I sound like I was vindicating China or more like appealing for objectivity and impartiality? I believe China will never allow their players to retire halfway through a match against foreign players citing injury only to appear playing the next day - such a player would invite a tirade back home in China. That's the point I was trying to make. To iterate in case it's still not clear enough - if Wang YH and Wang SX retires injured to their respective INA opponents and then appear to play the next round, all hell will break loose, I myself will lampoon them no end.

    Conceding a walkover without lifting a shuttle for whatever reason,faked injury or not, is more clear-cut - he or she is out of the tournament for good. China did that mainly to their compatriots - Lin Dan retiring towards the end of G2 vs K Tago and recently Chen Jin giving walkover to P Kashyap are rare exceptions and their respective beneficiaries weren't complaining.:D In what way "China does it consistently"?

    As for "match-fixing",a different subject,my stand is more or less similar to Indian coach P Gopichand's , resignedly speaking - I often chided them for not playing or fighting it out. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...mpic-medal-Gopichand/articleshow/12914047.cms

    The two issues aren't exactly the same,don't confuse them. Btw, Lindaweni's injury retirement actually adversely affected Wang Shixian who wasn't given a chance to prove she could decisively beat her opponent,much to her detriment.
     
  13. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    "Why, when both Indonesian women’s singles withdraw in one tie and also Lee (Chong Wei), there is no attention on that? Three in one day and nothing,” said Li after his women’s team qualified for the Uber Cup final in Wuhan this week" . . . quote Li Yong Bo

    The above presumably LYB's exact words. Ask any lawyer,he/she would probably say " What does he mean by that? What is "nothing"? He will have to explain himself,there is too little to go by;otherwise if I were to accuse him of anything wrong in court, I may not have a strong case."

    Don't assume I'm speaking up for him. Of course,LYB is not blind or stupid as not to know Lee CW's injury as you've painstakingly pointed out. I guess he's referring to all the criticisms levelled at him whenever any of his players retired,injured(real or faked) or withdrawn. Don't be too quick to jump to conclusions without ascertaining all the facts,his exact words or read too much into it. That's the difference between objectivity and subjectivity. I rest my case.
    :)
     
  14. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    My tirade is more directed towards LYB actually, though it seems like it is towards you. What I mean is LYB thinks he is vindicated now that there are other teams doing the same. I have a feeling he is just waiting for this moment just to vent out his feelings.

    But I'd just want to point out another big difference. The pull-outs by the Indonesians in the Uber Cup (though still something we should not approve of) is akin to conceding the rubber game after losing both opening games. The team has already lost. It is not match-fixing when the result is already determined. Whereas doing the same in individual tournaments, those are clearly match-fixing. And LYB is trying to equate those two and vindicate himself.
     
  15. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    I'm pretty sure most teams have done it at one time or another, but none as prevalent as CHN. 20% withdrawals in CHN-CHN matches speaks volumes.
     
  16. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    the simple answer to that is none of the others got much chance as they are so crap.
    It takes two to tango if you only get 1 player in the draw, can't do much about that, can you?

    LYB stated so many times that he is not interested for his players play against each other, its kind of pointless as far as his concern.
     
  17. laonong

    laonong Regular Member

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    What about percentage comparison?
     
  18. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    Let me use my post #14 in response.

    Additionally,allow me to express my views on match-fixing:-

    1) Frankly,I don't like it either as I've said in the post you quoted. I consider it unsportsmanlike and ungentlemanly. When Lin Dan conceded a walkover to Chen Jin in the SG Open 2011(?) Final, I was fed up and actually booed at them. Problem is how do you force two players who are not willing to play? Even if they do,they can fake it and go through the motions, any better?;

    2) Obviously, they match-fixed to benefit their compatriots, only a few occasions to foreigners, the same for other countries doing it.China committed it more often simply because they have more players in the running for OG qualifications than any other countries;

    3) Technically,does match-fixing violate BWF rules? If not,why is China or any country doing it accused of cheating? If it is,then BWF (or the OG Committee when it happens during the games) is the more culpable for being the governing world body to which CBA is subordinate, for not only conniving at,condoning it but even sanctioning it. Cheating is an offence,a crime, and BWF is guilty of complicity. No doubt it is an offence when bribery or corruption is involved.;

    4) Since China plays by BWF rules, it is not illegal nor cheating. If some BCers still insist it is cheating,then walk the talk,have the courage of their convictions,take legal action against CBA and BWF. Help to clean up the act,get rid of the perpetrators and restore the great game of badminton to its former glory and pristine purity. Don't know how and lack the means? Start a petition,collect funds and engage a lawyer. And don't forget to include Indian coach P Gopichand in the accused list for aiding and abetting it, here : Gopichand replied (when being asked about China manipulating ranking points):-
    Extract:
    Asked if he was concerned about China manipulating ranking points even at the last moment, Gopichand said, "I can be critical of them but hats off to them, to their spirit of nationalism, they work together and it doesn't matter who among them wins, they work together and hunt together. It is something to be proud of and we can learn from them. We can go on and criticise them but they are the best team."
    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/s...w/12914047.cms ;

    5) To me errant or rogue line judges are cheaters, they deprive the players from winning on merit fair and square. Even then it's not so easy to prove,camera footage is not accepted as conclusive, and once the decision is made there and then by the line judge and/or umpire,the aggrieved player has no recourse later. No solution as yet other than to ensure the use of third party/country umpires and line judges and trust their integrity;

    6) Lastly, I appeal to those BCers who freely accuse China of cheating to refrain from using that word as a convenient blanket term to berate any China official/player for anything you dislike or resent about them unless you've justifiable grounds for doing so, such as incontrovertible evidence. Yes,I disapprove of match-fixing and wish to see every match fought to the max but I won't call it cheating under such conditions stated above. And,yes,I hope it can be minimized,prevented or,better still,become a thing of the past one day;

    Just exchanging my views, the above is not targeted at you or anyone in particular as I always believe we can and should argue and disagree without personal attacks or flaming. I often say this,where we disagree,we can agree to disagree based on mutual respect and consideration. Thank you.
     
  19. bad's fan

    bad's fan Regular Member

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    what i think is if u dare to make critics for others' mistake, you shouldn't do the same thing. once you do it too, you're just as not-that-good too, and you have no right to say something about it anymore. no matter what is the reason indonesian players use in their WO, i don't care, it's still not the right thing to do, as to the chinese. if people can accepted indonesian players' reason, they shouldn't blame any reason the chinese use, coz basicly, everyone just do it for their own reason, for their own purpose and advantage, for the reason they think is the best for them.
    but still, this is not the good thing to badminton i think?
     
    #20 bad's fan, May 31, 2012
    Last edited: May 31, 2012

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