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LinDan gave the first game to Peter Gade (Evidence for)

Discussion in 'All England 2004' started by jamesd20, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    Just got back from the all england, and in the mens singles final, this definitley looked to be the case.

    first game

    During the first game Lin was not really doing any attacking shots, with intent to damage, when he was netting, and gade netted back, he made no attempt to attack/drive, but simply lifted.

    He was attempting to use disguise by holding and flicking his attacking lifts, in a different style to what he was doing on the previous days. I dont believe this was due to tactical reasons, more that he was not trying to win.

    Change Over

    IF Lin Dan had lost the first game, you would have expected Li yong Bo, and The singles coach to have a serious talk to him, with some new tactic. They did not. Li Yong Bo didnt even move from his seat, and the singles coach pretty much walked over to talk to him, spent 5 seconds with him, then left Lin on his own for the rest of the time out. (I suspect he said to lin "youre ok yes, no injuries, carry on with the plan")


    Second Game


    Then in the second game, Lin was many times faster than the first, was making attacking drops. He was playing proper rallies, and smashing.

    When netting, gade netted back, and only in the first 6 points (when lin went 6-0 up)he killed 3 off the top of the net.

    The only time gade got back into the game was when lin was comfortably up, almost won.

    His attacking lifts were "normal" again, net shots tight, and he was smashing the shuttle to the floor from the back.




    Why?

    Why would he do this?it i incredibly risky, as gade may have been more confident, and Lin possibly mentally down. It shows great mental strength of Lin to switch "on" and "off" (there was a previous thread about this.) It also shows great copnfidence from his coaches, that they would let him.

    I am in no doubt that he gave gade the first game.

    I believe it may have been to prove something, as afterLin match with sony, lin dan had serious words with lin, I couldnt hear them (and cant understand chinese), but I would imagine they were to the effect of: "you got gade tomorrow, the olympics are coming up, it is important psychologically that we beat him well, so he will be less confident in athens." and that is the plan.



    You will be able to see all this evidence on the tv, in real time to me it looked obviious. The most important evidence is the coach merely going over to him, and spending 5seconds. If he has lost the game by gade merit, then he would have had serious words.


    Any comments on this/notice any of this yourself? am I talking rubbish?(again!)
     
  2. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Well if Jalani on Tv msia is right,

    it is a deliberate attempt to wear out Gade in 3 sets.

    In 3rd set Gade was a spent force.

    Gad eplayed very well against a lost Taufik,

    but against Lin Dan he lost out on fitness and also Lin Dan really made him mpve

    all over the court and with many unpredictable shots of different speeds and path.
     
  3. Runner23

    Runner23 Regular Member

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    James,

    I think you are very wrong in your evaluation.
    In the first set Peter was still reasonably fresh and proved that he was a better player when it comes to sheer "thinking" badminton. He outsmarted Lin several times.
    The main reason why Lin got back and took 2nd and 3rd sets was that Peter had gotten tired and slowed down, thus allowing Lin to, as you mention, do more taps at the net. In such a game, speed is of the essence, but unfortunately for Gade he ran out of it, so to speak, after the 1st set. If you had seen the tv transmission, you could tell he was breathing very heavily from the end of 1st set.
    Don't forget that Peter's road to the final was much harder than Lin's. Peter played Chen Hong, Roslin and Taufik in a row. And playing Roslin will always be very hard on the physique as everything gets back 2 or 3 times more than usual.

    Peter has only recently begun training twice a day, and only 1 or twice a week does he do that. Simply because his knee still won't allow him to do anymore. So long tournaments and long matches are definitely still his weak point.
     
  4. xofrevlis

    xofrevlis Regular Member

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    I honestly believe that it was all in Lin's tactics to wear Gade out by not giving 100%, but enough to make his opponent work quite a lot for the first set before storming back to take the second and third sets. Admittedly, I've never seen Lin play before this year's AE, but the results for "one-off" games such as the finals of tournaments and TC games, it is a familiar trend (apart from last week's Swiss Open Bao Chun Lai). Okay, so I can't really base it on just the one tournament, but I know someone who has watched him play time and time again who agrees with my theory. (Are you listening, kwun? :p) It's safe to assume that most people would want to get through their games as quickly as possible to save energy and prepare for the game the next day, or even later that same day. I know you're talking about risks when Lin plays the way he does in finals, but to him, it's probably a greater risk to go all out. He'd probably feel that if his opponent is good enough to make the final, then he's good enough to win it too and therefore taking them head on might not give him the best chance of winning.
    It's all speculation, but they, this is a speculative thread to begin with. ;)
     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    I tend to lean toward runner23's point of view too. No one in the right mind, especially lin dan and liyong bo, in the final, All England, to toy with his opponent, even if it only for 1 game. I believe it is all part of an agreed tactic on the chinese side to take on peter gade the way they did. Lin can go all out on the 1st game and burn up energy as well, making lin and peter closer in energy level for the 2nd games and leading to a risky 3rd game. It is hard to implement new game plan for game 2 and 3 when energy is low. Lin dan played the 1st game in a way that he might need energy for the 3rd game. However, peter gade/denmark side choose to finish lin dan quick, hopefully in 2 games, because denmark team knows peter fitness level is not up to par with lin. So, in the end, both side implemented the correct and best strategy but of course, the best player on the court win even if both sides implemented their respectively strategy correctly.
     
    #5 cooler, Mar 14, 2004
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2004
  6. ken3682002

    ken3682002 Regular Member

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    I personally think Lin Dan played very well in the 2nd & 3rd game with right strategy.Every shot that Peter Gade send he can returned very well and even dive for it. I think Peter Gade doesn't know what to do since every shot don't work and I can see him very very tired.
     
  7. sunzhi

    sunzhi Regular Member

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    i dont think lin or li yongbo wd purposely 'gave' the 1st set away considering wht ws at stake.. in the 1st set, lin dan wsnt playing his usual attacking game thus allowing peter to be the more offensive of the two.. in the 2nd set, things changed as lin dan played a real fast game.. i must admit locomotive li yongbo wsnt fuming lk he used to whn his players lost, n didnt bother approaching lin in the break after the 1st set. maybe both li n lin's coach hv full confidence tht lin ll prevail....

    i disagree with some (espec runner23 sweeping statement, no offense dude) who believe peter gade is superior thn lin in all aspects except stamina.. lin dan possesses much more thn mere stamina.. in the 2nd set, peter ws totally outplayed (agree he md sm mistakes) and cdnt get in rhythm with lin's fast attacking game...

    i think wht mks lin dan a worthy champion is his attitude and desire to win... his never say 'die' attitute in retrieving every single shot, some almost impossible to return does bother his opponents a lot.. look at peter's expression whn lin dan dived for an incredible shot he md in the beginning 3rd game and lin dan hd a big crushing fall.. peter might be concern whthr lin is ok or maybe thinking to himself, 'ths guy is impossible!!!'.. thr on, with one single serve, lin dan gained 11 continuous points frm 3-4 to 14-4...

    if u guys watched the game itself, i m sure u ll appreciate lin's commitment to the game.. anyway, as badminton lovers we surelly appreciate good games no matter who wins... kudos to peter for making such a great come back after his knee surgery... same to lin dan... and we hv nt seen the last of thm yet, so sit tight, the show hs just begun....

    peace...
     
  8. ken3682002

    ken3682002 Regular Member

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    I totally agreed with sunzhi statements,both played very well and I really enjoying watching the game.I can see Lin Da controlling the court very well and the commitment that Lin Dan shown was incredible and no matter what ,he'll try to get the shuttle and that is long lost attitute we dont see nowadays
     
  9. Morten

    Morten Regular Member

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    I agree with runner23. Gade simply played better than Lin in 1st set but couldn't keep up the high pace. Lin and Peter is in some way similar in style and that's what made the match amazing. Gade mentioned in a newspaper that he need 5% in physical strengh and stamina to be in top form and that he was to tired to keep up the good work from 1st set. Lin however is smart to keep up the long rallies as he knows that he is in better shape than Gade. Its exciting to see how these two players will make it in the next tournaments and the olympics and great to see Gade back in business
     
  10. other

    other Regular Member

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    no one will argue that gade played better in the first set...the point is whether lin dan played worse, therefore without doing anything extra gade will have automatically played better.
     
  11. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Lin Dan could have just been extending the rallies, 'testing' Peter Gade to see what Gade could do. To do this, he must have been supremely confident. He took the best of Peter and raised the pace when it mattered. Peter could not raise an answer.

    It's an important thing for the China coaches to see what Peter's limits, strengths and weaknesses are.

    I'd say from the s/f, Taufik will be more dangerous - can see a lot potential improvement in Taufik's play and conditioning. IMHO, Peter seems less able to raise the game. He's lost a variation in play, the smash/kill combo. I hope to be proved wrong though:)
     
  12. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    I still stick by my first assesment.

    China team know gade is strong in mind, as proved over the years, and he showed he has lost no of it in the Quarter against roslin, when it seemed roslin was almost there.

    They also know he has just come back from injury (well, quite a while, but still had injury), and he is older. When athletes get older, they realise they may not be as quick as they used to be, and there fitness cannot be the same.

    Peter gade knows lin dan is fit, and very fast.

    Therefore, I believe the reasons were that China deliberatley let lin dan play slower, during first game, so peter gade would think that he could win, then lin came out very quick in the 2nd and third game. This would have several effects:

    1.Peter may not realise that actually lin dan IS quicker (Who would deliberatley lose first game), therefore think not lin quicker, but he has slowed down.

    2.peter would then be mentally down in the game, and think he is just too tired, putting pressure on him win ning the second game, knowing he would probably lose a third (as Lin dan is known to be very fit)



    Lets just take an example where lin didnt lose the first set, but played very hard. He may have won, but gade WOULDNT have been tired, as he would have moved much, as lin would win easily. In this case:

    In the second set, LIN would be tired, therfore slower, but peter would be fresh, so more likely that peter would win, peter would then have in his mind, he is fit, he is back and fully recovered, therfore more confident.

    Lin dan however would think he was not quick enough, and peter was too good.


    Runner:

    Yes Peter was tired after the first game, but because lin played a very tiring game to him, lots of clears, and lifts, then drawing him to the net, and pushing him back.

    I can only comment on what I saw, and to me it looked obviuous, from the way way Lin approached th first game to the way he approached the second (Attacked). If this was the chinese gameplan, then they would have had to change it, after the first, that would require a significant team talk fropm the coaches. Lin didnt get that, all he got was 5-10 seconds. the rest of the time out was on his own.



    China team may have done this as they knew peter had had tough games upto final, so knew he would be tired, and have to win in two, so, they give him the first (but tiring him out in doing so), peter knows he has had tough games before also, so his fitness is on his mind. Then lin plays properly in second and third (which were very easy for him.)


    It makes sense for me, but ask Li yong Bo for real reason.

    Also from lins reactions during the first game, I dont think he was too upset to be losing, As said previousley, I stck by my first assesment.
     
  13. Johnny

    Johnny Regular Member

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    You mean as proved during the WC 1999, the WC 2001 and the Olympics 2000? I think not. All of these times he was more or less the favorite, but each time he crumbled under the pressure...

    I do agree that he showed good mental strength against Roslin, but I think it is only after his comeback from his longtime injury that this facet of his game has improved greatly.

    Your theory about Lin Dan losing the first set on purpose is IMHO utter nonsense.
    Why should Lin not go for the first set which (again in theory) would destroy Peter as he probably knew he didn't have the stamina to win in three sets?
    No matter how Lin won one could make his own theory about why it happened. You are entitled to yours, but I don't buy it.
     
  14. Spyboy

    Spyboy Regular Member

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    Sorry James but I think you are out to lunch on this one.
     
  15. Morten

    Morten Regular Member

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    i agree with Johnny. Why should Lin Dan not play as fast as he could if he knew Gade´s stamina was worser than his own. You say Gade would not move around on court as much as lin if lin played fast. From my own experience when battling agaisnt the best U 19 players in Denmark you will get more tired than your opponent if he plays in a higher pace than you can follow. Further did Lin mention on worldbadminton that he was very nervous in the 1st set but his start in 2nd set replaced nerves with joy.
     
  16. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    RE what Lin said on world badminton site, do you really think he (or Li yong Bo) would say they threw the first match? I dont think so.

    Can you explain why the coach did not tell lin dan what to do, but just spent 5-10 seconds with him. The coach actually asked Li yong bo to go with him but he declined. I can only say what I see, we will never know the truth, We only believe things from what we see. You obviousley see different.


    IMO gade would be less tired in second set had Lin played best, as peter would not have had chance to move to where the shuttle was, as the shuttle would already be on the floor, but this sped would take edge off Lins game in second, Gade would be fresher, therefore longer rally, gade would thin k he got chance, therefore maybe win.


    Tactics or no tactics from me watching the game Gade was never in it when lin played properly, he was thoroughly outplayed.
     
  17. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Some comments based on the commentary by Jalani on TV msia.

    If you checjk the duration of game 1 and it is unusually long, it may be a sign that

    your opponent knows that you are older and exhausted over several days and will

    try to prolong the match.

    To say gade cant play 3 sets ( I said it) not true as he won against Chen Hong and

    Roslin.

    To say Roslin is a retriever no longer true as his game has become more explosive (

    Roslin has become more relaxed in his swan-song).

    I think both camps know the situation, Gade is fast enogh to squash Taufik in 2 sets,

    but doesn't work against Lin Dan.

    Thats why I say Lin Dan is an enigma, he doesn't giva anything away,no expressions, no indication of teredness etc, it will take some time before someone devises a stategy to exploit his weaknesses ( I think).
     
  18. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I watched the Peter Gade and Lin Dan match that was replayed last night on cable. I have watched Lin Dan play live in KL about 4/5 times. The way Lin Dan played against Peter Gade was an entirely different type of game that Lin Dan displayed in KL. It was obvious that Lin Dan was adopting a different strategy: he was setting up Peter Gade for the easy kill by stretching Peter to beyond his physical limits. Notice how and why Lin Dan consistently and persistently lifted and cleared to the extreme back, game after game? Sure such clears resulted in some outs in the first set but became accurate in the other sets. These clears and lifts took a heavy toll on Peter. I think Peter Gade played a wrong tactical game plan. Lin Dan is fitter, faster, and it is difficult to score direct points against him except for unforced errors. Most of the points Lin Dan gave away in the first game were unforced errors, like clearing the shuttle a bit out. In all the games, including the first game which Peter won, you can see that it was Lin Dan who was controlling the game, the pace, and the way the games were going to be played. I think Peter should have mounted a quick and furious game from the outset and try to finish the match in 2 games. The long rallies and attacking clears he allowed Lin Dan to dictate sealed his fate, because when you are tired you become an easy picking for your opponent.
     
  19. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Credible assassment, though not detailed as Wei.

    We in Msia never saw the singles as it was interupted

    but we saw whole of men's doubles.

    Its election time, time to fan some emotions

    to win hearts and minds.
     
  20. andymcg

    andymcg Regular Member

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    Having read this post without seeing the game I was very curious about the match. Now I have seen the first two sets I can add my comments. I would have watched the 3rd set as well, but I thought I would probably sleep in for work today if I did!

    In my opinion, there is absolutely NO WAY that Lin Dan threw or gave away the first game. It would be an incredibly stupid thing to do against such a good player as Gade, as just a few lucky points in the second game could mean Lin Dan could have lost. As it was, I don't think he did. He did look nervous at first, and later on he seemed resigned to losing the set, although he didn't look bothered. I'm sure he knew he could up the pace and tire Gade out, but I would always rather win in 2 sets than 3!

    In the first set many of Gade's points came from unforced errors from Lin, but Gade was also very patient, and mostly hit a good length. The one area where he came unstuck a few times, was the same one as used by Gopichand against Gade in the A/E semi in 2001. Gopichand would make Gade think he was in trouble after an attacking smash from Gade, so he would rush forward to the net for the kill and Gopichand would lift the shuttle over his head to the back. Lin did this to Gade several times, and I think the problem was made worse for Gade as his straight attacks from the forehand side were obviously going straight to Lin's forehand. I've found this problem myself when playing against left handers. Also, I think Lin was covering this side more as well, which is possibly why Gade had so much success in this game with cross court slices to Lin's backhand side (when he kept them in!)

    Right at the start of the second game Lin upped the pace substantially. He started sitting on the net as he knew Gade was controlling the net. He got 6 points without reply, before he backed off, possibly because he couldn't sustain the pace. Gade then got back into the game, getting back to 6-3 and the serve changed several times before we got to 8-5, which is not exactly a substantial lead for Lin. Lin then upped the pace again, and ran off 5 quick points, and during that spell Gade seemed to tire badly. His movement and form were poor, he frequently played shots when he was off balance, and several times instead of lunging at the net he kind of bent from the waist. Even then, Lin got stuck at 13 for a few serves before he could close out the game. So I don't think the second game was that easy for Lin at all.

    Also, after this, if the game was never in doubt, why was Li Yongbo so animated at the start of the 5 minute interval?

    Anyway, in conclusion I don't think Lin Dan is too far ahead of Gade as a player. He is much fitter and much faster, but if its true that Gade is still not fully fit, then that gap can be closed. Lin did have the ability to win quick points in the game, whereas Gade didn't. This made Gade's problem of being more tired even worse.

    I do agree that Gade seems to have lost the smash/kill combo. I don't recall it actually working at any stage in the game, and he doesn't attempt it as much as before. He seems to want to control the net, and he takes shots at the net fairly early, and often plays pushes into the body of his opponent. A very doubles style strategy?
     

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