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main / cross ratio. explain this.

Discussion in 'Badminton Stringing Techniques & Tools' started by kwun, Feb 12, 2013.

  1. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    as many of you know, i used to own an Alpha Shuttle Express stringing machine and now i own a Gamma 6004 6pt machine. both machine have the same WISE tension head. i just moved it over after i sold the ASE.

    the ASE is a flying clamp only machine. it is a decent machine, pretty strong but nothing when compared to the Gamma 6004 which is a completely solid beast.

    for the ASE, i used to tension my mains the same tension as the cross. that was after various experiments and turned out that produce the best feel. feel being how lively the string feel, result is a crisp repulsion that is both powerful and fast. i have tried all sorts of main/cross ratio, including add 2 pounds, add 10%, add 15%. etc. best is still main==cross on the ASE.

    for the 6004 however, when i string main=cross, the feeling is not as good. shuttle on impact tend to have more feeling of a thud instead of a crisp feel.

    and it is not just myself who felt that way, my customer also have the same feedback.

    so i experimented again, and again. and eventually, the tension that works best is cross = main + 10%. after i started this new tension ratio, i started to get that same feeling that i got from the ASE again. and complements from customers have started rolling in again.

    so why is it? i use flying clamps on both machines. they are being tensioned with the same exact WISE tensioner. the only difference is the turntable. and you also also argue that now i have 360 rotation which means the string is pulled at a slight angle. that's about it.

    the Gamma definitely has a much stronger support system, all the support arms are beefy as hell and don't budge a bit at all. the ASE on the other hand is very good but not something to write home about.

    comments?
     
  2. Mark A

    Mark A Regular Member

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    This is a weird one - I would have thought the wimpier machine would have needed the exrta on the crosses to counteract the outward spread from the mains.

    I've tried a lot of machines, and they've run the gamut - my old Pilot came to like "square" tensions, but the few times I've used the Yonex it preferred a +2.
     
    #2 Mark A, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  3. Alex82

    Alex82 Regular Member

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    do you use the static clamps on your gamma machine?

    my last machine was a pro's pro pioneer with static clamps but i only used them for the start of the mains because they was not the best ones... for the rest i used the flying clamps. with my new machine i noticed something like you.

    i think when you stringing the mains with flying clamps, the flying clamps moving "alot" (in comparsion with a good static clamp) after releasing the tensioner. the movement on the crosses is not so much, due to the mains which holds the flying on the crosses too...

    so 25 lbs on the mains with flying clamps could be only 22 lbs. the crosses with the "same" tension may have around 24 lbs...

    if you don't belive look at the movement of the flying clamps and compare this to your pre-stretch function of your wise. flying clamp is moving more than 0,5cm in the air while the pre-stretch of 10% is moving (releasing) the string only 1-2mm (depends on the tension).
     
    #3 Alex82, Feb 12, 2013
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
  4. Ashdelsol7

    Ashdelsol7 Regular Member

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    i agree with this but at the same time when you tension the next string the flying clamps pull back level if not further than the static clamp.....so i dont think that the overall tension would be less using flying clamps over fixed clamps. I prefer using flying clamps as i find its easier quicker and holds the string tighter without crimping/crushing the string. My setup is a pro's pro tx700 with a wise 2086 added on and yonex flying clamps. The only time i use the fixed clamps is on the starting string....or on the second to last verticals
     
  5. j4ckie

    j4ckie Regular Member

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    Weird! If you changed from flying to fixed clamps, that would explain it, but you specifically mentioned using flying clamps on both...so I think it has to be the only thing that's actually different from before - the support system. Are the supports of the Gamma in different positions than those of the Alpha? Are the side supports of a different construction? Both can have a big effect on the string job, as worse side supports will allow more slip of the racket (especially while doing the mains) and a different positioning will affect how much the racket deforms when tensioning the mains.
    It's certainly odd that the better, more expensive machine is the one where you need to add that much tension to the crosses, but on the other hand, your customers won't care what caused that as long as the lively feeling is back! :D
     
  6. Alex82

    Alex82 Regular Member

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    the flying clamp is not pulled back to the old position... too much loss over the two grommets. a good static clamp would be hold the tension better.

    BUT i don't read the paragraph with the "i use flying clamps on both machines."... :eek:
     
  7. Ashdelsol7

    Ashdelsol7 Regular Member

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    the flying clamp is DEFINITELY pulled back to its position. I very much doubt there is much loss over the two grommets....if you check the freq of the string (the sound of it) compared to a string that has not resistance there is no noticeable difference between them (using the wise). There is more tension loss from a creeping string than there is over flying clamps. I dont doubt that a good static clamp will hold a string better but i think the difference between the two is negligible. Plus uising a flying clamp you can clamp closer to the edges of the frame as opposed to a fixed clamp.
     
  8. lightandtangy

    lightandtangy Regular Member

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    kwun

    maybe post a video? on how you string a racket nowadays?
     
  9. R20190

    R20190 Regular Member

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    Strange one.

    The only thing that I can think of is whether your supports are hard enough. By hard, I'm talking about the hardness of the material it is made from, not whether they move or not. Not seen the Gamma but the difference in hardness may be a factor?

    Some people like to have a little rubber/silicone like material on the interface of the supports to the racquet frame as not to scratch the paintwork. But as these can squeeze under high loads, it can allow the frame to distort a little.

    Also, how far is your tension head from the racquet, has that changed? I'm wondering whether you are actually getting the same tension on the racquet as you did before - even if you have a WISE with constant pull. But even so, this should be consistent between the mains and crosses really so probably not a factor. :confused:

    I find it strange that you're having to have higher tensions on your mains than your crosses. Are you stringing the same racquets as before?
     
  10. DarthHowie

    DarthHowie Regular Member

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    Hey Kwun.

    Might as well chime in since i also use a Gamma 6004 (older version) + Wise 2086. I also use a strict main + 10% on crosses (first 4 crosses build up to main + 10%). I use only fixed clamps. The load spreader i use is a Gosen. The biggest difference with your machine from mine is that I use Michal Chudek Supports (love them A LOT).

    When i first started using the machine i tried to just use a strict 2lbs more on crosses but i found that the shape of the racket was more compressed inwards (fat and stumpy). Over time I modified it such that now i always string 10% more on crosses which also maintains the shape of the racket. My friends all share the same thoughts as yours in terms that they having nothing but positive things to say when they are hitting (minus the ppl that break string often due to mishits).

    The majority of the players i string for all are around: 25 - 29 lbs range
     
  11. DarthHowie

    DarthHowie Regular Member

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    I'm curious what yan.v has to say since he has the progression II + wise + chudeks?
    Trinhity also has a 6004, but he strings all rackets using Haribito Pro.
     
  12. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    that was exactly my thoughts too. but there must be something that we missed in how the main/cross interact with the shape of the racket head.

    or maybe the rounded racket head with main=cross is somehow feel-equivalent to a longer racket head with cross=main+10%.
     
  13. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i don't disagree that there might be some tension loss with flying clamps. however, i did try to keep the comparison fair that i am using flying clamps in both cases. the only exception is when i start the main which i use fixed clamp to simplify the process.
     
  14. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    right. but not completely. as we tested it out in a previous video. there is tension loss due to friction at the grommets.

    but i do agree that flying clamp is faster and the spring loading clamp is easier on the string than fixed position clamp in fixed clamps.
     
  15. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    glad that you the same findings as me. give me reassurance that i have not gone bonkers.
     
  16. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    side support. they are both metal ones. the ASE ones are sitting on thinner metallic arms while the Gamma ones are way way beefier on very strong metallic arms. both are padded with hard plastic so no soft rubber/silicone stuff.

    tension head is around 1-2 inch further. i cannot think of a reason why that would make much difference other than me having less slack to work with.

    and to clarify, the tension is higher on the cross and not on the mains. cross=main+10%.
     
  17. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i have some raw ones saved up but need the time to edit them. stay tuned. :)
     
  18. Mark A

    Mark A Regular Member

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    My goal is always to get the same "aspect ratio" strung as empty. Maybe a frame under slight N/S compression transmits more feel...
     
  19. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    well, when i had the ASE and gotten the good feel with main=cross, i was very first person to have disputed the theory that maintaining the racket head shape is simply just a aesthetic issue.

    i haven't measured the racket shape change after i moved to the new tensioning scheme though. more experiment needs to be done.
     
  20. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    i also forgot to mentioned that with the new tension scheme, i do leave the bottom 4 and top 4 cross at the same tension as main. only the middle 13/14 cross are +10%.
     

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