Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Netcord shots : are they lucky shots or skills??..

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by ctjcad, Oct 18, 2010.

  1. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,138
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    ..i don't know if this topic has been discussed in this sub-forum or not, but just want to share this mini discussion from another thread..:cool:

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/for....-who-will-be-better-in-this-tournament/page2

    What do you guys think? Also, don't we see pro players raising their arm/hand to apologize if their netcord shot went their way?..
     
  2. danstryder

    danstryder Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    us
    i think there's a need to make a distinction between the netcords that hit during say, a drop shot, and those during a tight spinning netshot.

    For drop shots, the pros have really good control, so the margin between the bird and the net as it crosses is not very much. However, they're not machines, so there is still some variation, and occasionally a few shots will graze the netcord and drop over. This I believe, depends more on luck, however, having skill greatly increases the chances of this happening as the shots consistently pass close to the net, and have little variance.

    For tumbling dropshots, it probably is easier to get the shuttle to tumble over the netcord most of the time, in my opinion
     
  3. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,379
    Likes Received:
    46
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Net-cord shots are primarily luck, but it does depend on the shot.

    For example, getting a net-cord smash is very lucky, regardless of the circumstances in the rally. Conversely, if you are taking the shuttle close to the net to play a drive or push, and are well positioned for the shot, then you actually have a moderately good chance of getting a net cord. The same can be true for some net shots, depending on the situation.

    Similarly, you can aim for a net cord when playing a low serve. You're not going to get one consistently, but I've heard that the Chinese doubles team use (or used) this as a practice. The idea is that most of their serves will be very tight and falling just beyond the service line, and occasionally one will just catch the net and land perfectly on the line.

    Obviously you need to keep a sensible margin of error. There's no point getting 1/10 net cords on your serves, while the other 9/10 go in the net. ;)
     
    #3 Gollum, Oct 18, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2010
  4. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    13,665
    Likes Received:
    292
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Personally I hit the net cord in my favour 2-3x per game either on net shots, drops or smashes, so I don't consider it luck.

    Why? Because I'm aiming to get the bird right over the net; so the top of the net cord is what I'm aiming at. So if it happens to touch the net and fall over on the other side, then I consider that I've aimed properly and perfectly. Of course, if it falls over on my side then I'd tell myself that I was unlucky. :p :rolleyes::D

    There was also another debate about that 2010 JO MSF game with LD and LCW, surrounding the perception that LCW did not apologize for his several net cord shots whereas LD did.

    I think IMO that LCW was just too engrossed and concentrating on his game and walked away forgetting to "apologize". Knowing his humble and laid-back personality, he would not have done it intentionally.
     
  5. JukUx

    JukUx Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Markham
    Well, i think its luck... unless its a drop shot from the net and it hits the net and tumbles over or something like that. Usually, if i do a net cord from a smash or drop or drive w/e i say sorry because i wasn't really aiming for that as it wasn't my goal :l but idk thats my opinion. i get really pissed when ppl do like 2-3 net cords in a row from anything but a drop v_v
     
  6. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2004
    Messages:
    19,138
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    u.s.a.
    ..guys, the discussion is certainly getting interesting in that thread and methinks they're supposed to be discussed in this thread..
     
  7. quacky

    quacky Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco CA
    Every stroke and movement in badminton has position, velocity, and momentum vectors. Because of this, I would conclude that any "netcord" is purely physics. Due to the momentum and instantaneous velocity as well as placement of the bird as it crosses over the net, there is no "luck" involve. It comes out the way the laws of physics dictates it. What appears to be luck is that statistical, but not random, variables such as muscle tension, our grip with the ground, the tension in the string, and countless other variables. Since players are not machines, as mentioned above, there is variance. And that creates a risk. But the risk narrows with skill. So an amateur may make 1 netcord smash per match, an advance make 1 per game, and a professional several over the course of the match. (These numbers are made up but illustrative). Therefore the conclusion, when taking a deterministic view of reality, is that the netcords done by profession are skills + risk, which the skills being a larger factor than the risks in controlled situations (getting to the bird on time, having good stamina to control the bird, etc).

    Personally, I cannot choose to make a netcord. And even if I am as skillful as a professional, I would probably aim conservatively to have the position of the bird to average just above or just pass the net (depending on smash or drops) so that even with the variance, the netcord would be at the extreme ends of the bell curve. I would conjuncture that experience professionals would feel the same way.
     
  8. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    13,665
    Likes Received:
    292
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    quacky,

    Very good analysis!

    The bell curve analogy is excellent!

    So for beginners, their shot variance is greater, so the bell curve is wider and they have to aim higher above the net to avoid netting too many shots.

    But for pros, they have a tighter variance, so the bell curve is narrower and they can afford to aim just above the tape.

    I think in total analysis, it is highly proficient skills that create the "lucky" net cord shots.

    When pros practice and drill, I'm pretty sure they hit the net cords often, as that is how they judge how close they're getting to the tape. If the shuttle doesn't graze or hit the tape, then there is still doubt about how close you're getting. When it touches or hits the tape, then you'll know to back off the "tightness" of the shot and raise it a tad to avoid netting errors.

    Well, at least that's what goes thru my mind when I'm drilling or playing, eg. drops, net shots, drives, etc... ie. any shot that needs to be low.
     
  9. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2009
    Messages:
    1,408
    Likes Received:
    94
    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    England
    Visor, I am afraid I have to disagree to a certain extent. I know of many situations where players aim FOR the netcord on their net shots.

    I would tend to agree that a netcord from any shot that isn't taken from very close to the net (anything other than a net shot or low serve) is lucky to have hit the net and gone over, because It is highly unlikely that the pleyer playing the stroke was AIMING for the netcord. However, many top singles players such as peter gade practice their tight and further back net shots with the intention of it clipping the tape and going over. From so close to the net, you can gain excellent feeling as to the placement and trajectory of the shuttle and thus these net shots, when they hit the net and go over, are NOT, in my opinion luck, but the result of a lot of practise, doing exactly that, hitting the netcord and having the shot tumble over the net.

    As an example, watch some recent high quality mens singles matches involving Taufik hidayat. When he gets the chance to play a tight spinning net shot, MANY of them will hit the net and go over. This does not mean he ALWAYS goes for the netcord, as this is risky should the shuttle go too short. However, over playing the shot slightly has a good chance the shuttle will go over the net, OR hit the net cord. When he takes the shot VERY early and very near the tape, it is obvious he is going for the netcord. This does not mean that there is not SOME luck involved when it does hit the tae and go over, but there is a huge amount of skill involved as well.

    This is my opinion: for shots other than netshots, it is luck, for netshots, it is mostly skill (when it happens often!!!). At a lower level of play, I would consider them all to be luck, but not with professional players.

    Good thread guys.
     
  10. ERTHK

    ERTHK Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Professional Designer
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Training & Preparaton is everything

    Professional players are able to execute shots that are very close to the net cord, I would prefer not to call them lucky shots.

    It takes countless of hours of training & good preparation before matches in order to execute those shots well.

    While in training, players do aim for the net cord to practice their shots (serve & net shots), it will give them a perfect guideline to adjust their wrist control, as well as shuttlecock placement.

    The aim is to make the shuttlecock travel pass as close to the net as possible, combined with continuous training, it will make their shots very difficult to be intercepted or returned.

    During match play situation, the speed is much faster and reaction time is much lesser than in training, I doubt that they will go for net cord.

    However, because they consistently used net cord as a guideline in training. Their shot control & shuttlecock placement will be very close to the net even in match play situation, occasionally it struck the net cord & fell over.

    In my opinion, it's not lucky shot, it's a result of hardwork & determination in training.
     
  11. quacky

    quacky Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco CA
    To be honest, it seems that our last four posts (#7-10) have the same core understanding, though slightly different details and different terminology. In particular, what MSeeley terms as luck, if I understand him correctly, is the variance unaccounted for in the intention of the stroke. Whereas Erthk, Visor, and myself, would not call that luck. I would call it environmental and kinesthetic statistical fluctuations in the context of the game. While the variance are not consistently and directly considered by the players' consciousness, they are tightly controlled by the players automated actions and subconscious neural calculations due to the professional players experience and years of meticulous practice.
     
  12. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    13,665
    Likes Received:
    292
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Or you can call it "muscle memory".

    Agreed. Their highly proficient skills created their "luck".

    So... if LCW, TH or LD or any of the pros hit the tape in a net shot or drive or drop etc. and it tips over, do they need to put up their hand to apologize? :)
     
    #12 visor, Oct 21, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2010
  13. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    8,905
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Yes
    Location:
    Arrakis
    Call it sportsmanship; grace; manners, decency; respect. The human gesture says "I probably did attempt that net shot, but I am grateful it went over and I accept that there was maybe a slight element of good fortune; but I also acknowledge that you were on the receiving end, and I apologize for your bad luck in this instance."

    Phew! :):D

    We should all be grateful that most of them still do this gentlemanly thing. It enriches the experience for them, as well as for all of us.
     
  14. quacky

    quacky Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco CA
    That's a great term, "muscle memory". This is one of many reasons why I'm a beginner, I don't even know of such efficacious terms.

    I feel it is nice of professions to raise their hands. I noticed as I improved, if I mimic that gesture, my opponents do not get as frustrated and I can continue to enjoy the game. In televised badminton, I feel that adds an important fellowship element between players of different languages and origins.
     
    #14 quacky, Oct 21, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2010
  15. ERTHK

    ERTHK Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Professional Designer
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Players do apologize when the shuttlecock hit their opponent's body & most of the time their opponent will acknowledge them.

    But for shots that strike the net cord & tumbling over, I'm not very sure that their apology (if there's any) will be well acknowledged by their opponents.
     
  16. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,379
    Likes Received:
    46
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    I would not call that "grandiloquence"; I would call it enhanced prolixity, symptomatic of an innately ordered mental model that strives vigilantly to clarify such nebulous, antediluvian constructs as fortuity. ;)

    Big words are fun. :D
     
    #16 Gollum, Oct 22, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
  17. ERTHK

    ERTHK Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2008
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    Professional Designer
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Big words are not only fun, they are also pretty useless when u want to simplify an explanation :)
     
  18. cobalt

    cobalt Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    8,905
    Likes Received:
    1
    Occupation:
    Yes
    Location:
    Arrakis
    Show-off! :(:mad::crying:
    ;):D
     
  19. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,379
    Likes Received:
    46
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    Incurably so, I'm afraid. :D
     
  20. quacky

    quacky Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2008
    Messages:
    66
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    San Francisco CA
    Hehe, when I read your sentence Gollum, here was my train of thought:

    >I would not call that "grandiloquence"; :( "aww, I hope no one thought I was being a pompous"
    >I would call it enhanced prolixity, symptomatic of an innately ordered mental model ; :) "Whew, someone understands...oh I can take that as a compliment"
    >that strives vigilantly to clarify such nebulous, antediluvian constructs; :D "yeah, I gotta try to make sense of how reality works...yep yep"
    > as fortuity. ;); "LoL" I bursted in laughter here.

    Well played, well played.

    I do want to comment to all those that have helped me and in general that I'm not at all an arrogant guy. In fact, I'm so gentle and sweet I would be such a wonderful "mommy" if I wasn't already such a *deepens voice* manly man. In addition to not knowing the jargon of sports--which leaves me long-winded--I also have a need to understand which requires me to make every attempt at being accurate. I apologize if I put off anyone with my mannerisms.
     
    #20 quacky, Oct 22, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010

Share This Page