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Panhandle grip while smashing?

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Richie1234, Oct 31, 2017.

  1. Richie1234

    Richie1234 New Member

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    Edit: Mods can delete this thread, Ive seen a similar post on the next page. Sorry!


    Someone recently told me this. How much will this hinder me?
    Ive been playing regularly for 6-7 months so Im not sure if i'll be able to correct this.


    What are your thoughts?
     
    #1 Richie1234, Oct 31, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2017
  2. DarkHiatus

    DarkHiatus Regular Member

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    Hinder you badly.

    6-7 months is nothing as far as a habit is concerned.

    Advise you get a coach if you want to seriously improve! :)
     
  3. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    You've just begon, don't worry too much. But yes, regular forehand grip is much better for overhead hits. Also try to pronate your lower arm to gain easy power, no big power from muscles necessary. Start slow and no power, slowly increase.
    And get some training to get better! And for fun!
     
  4. edogaktop

    edogaktop Regular Member

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    Grip is the most important thing in your technique. When you have the right grip, you can hope to develop a good swing; with a wrong grip, you WILL develop a bad technique. Wrong grip will force your body to compensate by adding extra motion (e.g. flexing your wrist) and over time it can completely ruin your game.

    If you just started, follow what thyrif said, do not worry too much (other than worrying about your grip!). Even when you play with bad swing, you will still gain a lot like getting accustomed to the shuttle speed, how it bounces off your racket, the length and the width of the courts and so on.

    Recording your game and compare how you swing to how the professionals do it will help a lot. I also find practicing swing in your room/garage/where ever helps train your muscle memory. Kinda like how the kungfu disciples practice punching air millions of times.
     
  5. pepe54

    pepe54 Regular Member

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    I would disagree with the majority here but I will also say that everyone has a unique variation of the same technique at some point in their badminton-life, be it for the backhand clear, forehand smash or reverse slice.

    My suggestion would be to look at several high resolution frame stills of the smashing greats like Fu Hai Feng or Lin Dan then to draw your own conclusions; note that these players are capable of using both grip styles but notice that the panhandle predominatly shows for maximum attack, power oriented, full commitment shots. As such, it is my personal belief that the panhandle grip is used as the ultimate form for a power smash for the simple reason of muscle twitch activation and associated biomechanics. Likewise, I never really understood those who preach about the use of "finger power" and / or developing wrist strength - there aren't any muscles in the fingers or wrist's - its mostly forearm pronation and supination involved with the other muscle groups playing auxiliary roles.

    Author's Note & Full disclosure:
    I am as flexible as a broomstick when it comes to flexing my joints so I guess the panhandle is convenient for me too. Experience wise, I consider myself as a beginner and have been playing for 2 years now, although I have an unhealthy obsession with >31-34 lbs string tension setups and ultra stiff, head heavy racquet designs.
     
  6. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Yes, I too see LD and FHF using pan handle power smashes, but this was whilst I was beating them in the finals...

    Sent from my ONE E1001 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I have to say I haven't noticed exactly what you have described here. I agree players are capable of hitting in any given way, and will change their grip to match the context and intent (what shot played, from where). However, I have studied players and their techniques for the last 10 years, and the most astounding displays of technical excellence and power are not associated with a panhandle style grip as far as I have noticed. If I look at Lin Dan's performance in 2008/2009, when I believe he played at his most devastating, he used a "basic" grip for most of his overhead shots and power smashes. I actually think its the coordination of the body that generates power, regardless, to a certain extent, of the grip (noting that some grips will restrict joint range of motion that will inevitably inhibit power generation).

    Those who "preach" about finger power or wrist strength will, if questioned, be the first to explain that those terms relate to the utilisation of the fingers or the wrist, to help generate power. That is not to say that the origin or the insertion of the muscles that cause actions to those parts of the body are specifically located or originate at that particular joint thats been named, but the usage of the movement of those body parts. To be honest, any attempt to "isolate" the key muscles that create power is, I believe, slightly missing the point: all the muscles are used in some way, including the opposing muscles to any movement that act as key joint stabilisers, to allow the motion of joints and limbs. The motion of the joints and limbs at a certain speed (enabled by the muscles) is what causes power. So its pretty darn obvious why we talk about "finger power" - because the squeezing of the fingers is the last component that occurs before striking the shuttle, and lends considerable aid in improving the efficiency of power transfer into a stroke. Not claiming that the muscles are orginating at the fingers (although they obviously do insert at the fingers, otherwise they couldn't cause movement), but that you "use your fingers"... or finger power.

    I genuinely think trying to isolate "key" movements is a mistake, but if we're going to go down this route: power for badminton strokes is pulled from the ground, using the power of the leg muscles which allow ankle and knee bending and extension, then hip extension, and this power is then transferred through the extension of various sets of connected core muscles, which may or may not involve a core rotational motion, and then leads to the extension of the shoulder and arm, followed by movements in the forearm, wrist then fingers. I don't think there is any value in picking out any specific movement. If people use the correct grip, they will probably have very good technique.
     
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  8. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Just a quick expansion on what finger power is; it's squeezing your fingers at the moment of impact to activate wrist muscles. If you squeeze your fingers as hard as you can, you should notice your forearm stiffens. This is a concept that has been taught in martial arts for a long time.
     
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  9. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    This is a good description! Important that you don't squeeze before impact otherwise you slow down the muscles prematurely. Exactly as you say - it must be at impact. Someone gave me an analogy: the power and energy transfers through your body - you squeeze as if you are trying to grab the energy just as it is about to slip away in order to stop it escaping!
     
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  10. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I would say: if people use a suitable grip, they have the potential for very good technique. Or expressing it logically:

    (Good technique → suitable grip) ^ ¬(Suitable grip → good technique)​

    ;)
     
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  11. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Thats probably true. Good technique requires a suitable grip is certainly true. But generally, if people use a suitable grip, the technique normally ends up reasonable if they practice in my experience.
     
  12. Charlie-SWUK

    Charlie-SWUK Regular Member

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    Regarding 'energy', I overheard an interesting conversation at a boxing gym. They were talking about how much harder it is to sustain movement speed if you're stiff, and that they found being overly tense 'sapped the energy from your muscles'.
     
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  13. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Yes indeed I would agree with that. It is also not possible to move with the same speed when tense, and I am currently leaning towards advocating "speed" rather than worrying about "power" - I believe power may come from the greater speed and that the "power" is a bit like the squeezing of the fingers - it should come at the end of having produced maximum speed.

    I attended a martial arts seminar recently and found that a great addition to my knowledge and understanding (I haven't previously had experience in martial arts), and seemed to completely align with what I already know and understand about speed and power and performance. However, the additional things I learnt were incredible. Any tension within the body can ruin the power generation potential, and I have never seen anyone move that fast in person. It was very inspirational.
     
  14. thyrif

    thyrif Regular Member

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    Nice discussions here.
    There are many types of grip, each appropriate for certain situations. I also like the comments on tension in the body, relaxing is very important, only using tension when useful. This also translates to a loose grip and allows for much control in your racket hand, allowing to play with mostly the fingers.

    Regarding the panhandle: I've been over this again in my course to become a division trainer, with some top trainer-coaches from my country. Basically, the only times panhandle grip is appropriate is when making a short stop or netkill in the front court. And one could argue a proper backhand drop/clear technique uses somewhat of a panhandle-like grip.
    It's a no-no for forehand overhead shots (it results in no turning/pronation of the lower arm and only using muscles to power it).
    So sorry pepe, I very much disagree with what you said about power-shots.
     
  15. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Absolutely.

    For example, let's look at the upper arm and triceps and biceps. You have tension in both muscles. Try to extend the elbow and your tense biceps is working against the triceps. Relax your biceps and do the same movement - you go faster and use less energy.
     
  16. OhSearsTower

    OhSearsTower Regular Member

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    while this is of course very true, this advise should be given very carefully

    i think to get to the best performance one must be awake, concentrated, energised!
    most people I see playing (especially the big group below the best players of a region) are too sluggish..too slow in their mind, not hungry enough mentally
    telling them to relax certainly would be the wrong direction imho
     
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  17. pepe54

    pepe54 Regular Member

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    I agree with this train of thought. Biomechanics for maximization of impulse generation :).

    Both points are are valid and have their merits however,
    -when "stiff", muscles cannot achieve full or optimal contraction when in a partially contracted state
    -at the same time some players fail to realize full contractions and this is exacerbated by certain grip methodologies.

    I'll put a video up later today comparing and contrasting both the panhandle and "weakhandle" styles :D

    Grip Comparison.JPG
     
    #17 pepe54, Nov 30, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2017
  18. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    It is not mental relaxation.

    It is the relaxation in the muscles.
     
  19. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Pepe, pls, neither of those are panhandle grip

    Sent from my ONE E1001 using Tapatalk
     
  20. pepe54

    pepe54 Regular Member

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    Please describe them. I am not aware of the proper terminology here, so rather than 'pls no' - a more definitive answer would be great :).

    As I labelled, the right picture is obviously not a panhandle grip. Left one looks like a panhandle to me. I also don't recommend viewing the picture on a potato :D
     

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