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Past vs Present...

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by Matt Ross, Jun 28, 2003.

  1. Matt Ross

    Matt Ross Regular Member

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    Hi all,

    Just a thought that, whilst sitting here, crept into my mind. Would the world champ player of say the 1980's be able to compete with the world champs today? Technique is emphasised alot and practice of things like 'shadow' and split stepping is even more common.
    So, with all the development to the present day, would the world champs in their peak in say the 80's (a doubles pair), be able to keep up with the speed of say Ha/Kim due to the change in theory etc.

    Matt
     
  2. Hugo

    Hugo Regular Member

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    I've noticed that today's players are bigger and stronger and they have the advantage of the latest badminton technology. Today's game centers a lot around power and so the game has evolved at the fundamental level. Notice how nearly all international level MS or MD players will do jump-smashes today while that statement can only be said for perhaps the elite bunch of yesteryears.

    As a contrast, I made a statement in the "badminton videos" thread that the players of the 80's and 90's seemed more graceful and fluid-like, because their games did not center completely on power. Also, those players did not have Ultimum-Ti, or Muscle Power technology, etc. in their rackets.

    If all variables were kept the same (ie. same rackets, shoes), then I would think the best players of yesterday can beat the best of today. Li Yong Bo/Tian Bing Yi in their prime would definitely slaughter the current crop of Chinese MD players. similarly, I believe Zhao Jian Hua/Yang Yang could match Chen Hong/Xia Xuan Ze. Regarding Kim/Ha, I don't think they can beat their predecessors, Park Joo Boon/Kim Moon Soo.

    What do others think?
     
  3. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Can't say I know much about men's doubles but I can make a bold statement

    in ladies singles.

    I think the ladies singles in 80's in the form of Li Ling Wei, Han Ai Ping,

    and 90's with Ye Zhao Ying and Camilla are much more skillfull than present with all

    their advantages. All four had wide range of strokes and could smash as well as

    the men.Can't see much to shout about in ladies' singles nowadays.

    Even in ladies doubles, Li Ying and Wu Dixi/Guan Wei Zhen could smash harder

    than the players today who appear to play a carefully calculated game to outlast

    opponents and make minimum mistakes.

    Anyway when I find the time I will add some more rare videos to SWJ's site to back

    my statements.
     
  4. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Keep an eye out for the 1980 game between Liem Swie King vs Han Jian,

    it is a case of outlasting an opponent by conserving energy for the final dash.

    It is also the 1st time LSK was beaten for several years and the first time he lost his

    temper in a match by chucking his racquet in disgust.

    The 1982 match between Liem Swie King vs Misbun is also a classic of how not to

    play oneself to exhaustion but to leave some gas for the final surge.

    I think SWJ is going to post in his site after they are converted.
     
  5. dlp

    dlp Regular Member

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    The players of the early eighties would not be at the top now. Even with the modern rackets their game and fitness would not be on a par with todays top players. That is not to say that if those players could come through again today, given access to modern training, techiques, rackets, competition etc those players wouldn't still make it to the top since they were undoubtedly great champions.

    If you look at the early eighties the mens doubles was a totally different game, English and Scottish pairs were world class, the game was relatively slow and fitness was not well developed. When PJB, Sideks, BingYi/Yong Bo came onto the scene the game was revolutionised and England were suddenly nowhere. Park remained at the top for a long time. Even when he came back from retirement in 93/96 he was better than ever. He would possibly have matched Ricky/Rexy at their peak even though they came through a decade later. Even since then the game has gone up in speed again. So I think while a few of the greats were ahead of their time and could match the next generation the general standard has risen very sharply and your average player of 20 years ago would be totally outpaced in todays game.

    In general with modern training techniques/rackets giving the players such great speed and power the game has lost some of its charm. Similarly in tennis people fail to appreciate the brilliance of Sampras and talk about the skill of McEnroe etc, there just isn't the time nowadays to play the more graceful game and players now are packed with muscle , meaning their movement, although faster, isn't as graceful. Compare a distance runner with a sprinter, the runner looks more easy/graceful than the sprinter!

    In singles I can imagine Morton Frost bridging the generation gap best, since he could play the game in different ways and was mentally so strong. Even the singles game is so much faster now and the net area is played very differently, in the eighites we saw a lot of shot played from below the tape, net exchanges etc, now we see everything taken much early, flicked around the court, many driving exchanges etc.
     
  6. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Could certainly be true, but badminton is a game of ehdurance and stamina.

    With increased speed and fitness how many players can play at the same pace

    for 2-3 sets?

    Poul Erik Larsenn himself once remarked that the only player he knew of who could

    play at the same pace and speed throughout was Dai Yun. What I'm trying to say is

    that it is not so much how fit one is , it is rather how one distributes energy use.

    The 2003 Ae final between Chen Hong and Hafiz would be a good eg, one played

    himself to a standstill whilst another conserved for the final push. In fact Hafiz,

    Roslin, Taufik are best egs of how they pace themselves in a game to pip

    opponents at the tape.Same thing occured when Hafiz bt Bao in T Cp

    and with many matches involving Taufik and Chinese players.
     
  7. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Just crossed my mind.When various people assert that players today are faster

    than those in the past, have they actually seen past players in action?

    Download and watch the 1980 match which also includes 10 minutes of a doubles

    match between Tjun Tjun and Ade Chandra vs Sun Zhian and Yao Xi Ming,

    then decide wheteher there is any doubles player today faster than the famous

    Tjun Tjun of the 70's.

    Seems like this issue also cropped up in Badders where someone was quick to

    belittle coaching skills of players from the 80's.
     
  8. modious

    modious Regular Member

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    But they'll have to wait a while before that match is converted though! I've passed about 15 tapes to Mini Me to encode.

    PS: Did you receive my latest email?
     
  9. Kennyb

    Kennyb Regular Member

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    Hmmmm.... A very interesting topic here..... I maybe young to know any of the 70s or even some of the 80s (was only a baby in the 80s then) but watching videoclips of the stuff including more recent ones lately, badminton has really changed itself.

    If not mistaken, it was Yang Yang who broke the laws of badminton and made it a fast pace racket sport - before that it was Morten Frost who ruled badminton and it was just the plain clearings before one person mentally loses their concentration that then they start attacking. After Yang Yang, everyone was going for speed. Now it's seem to be speed and a lot of smashes - particularly in doubles match.

    To be able to constantly smash so much and yet maintain the stamina and speed sounds impossible when it is possible.

    *Better get back to training really....*
     
  10. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    I believe it wasn't Yang Yang who changed the modern game,

    I think it was Zhao Jian Hua in 1985 when he introduced a new drive game

    and whipped Liem Swie King and edged Morten Frost in the All England.

    But I Frost learnt quick and I don't think he ever lost to Zhao again after that.

    DLP is right about Frost and I believe he is complete enough to hold his own

    against any player in any age, I don;t think even Gade can come close to him.

    You know experts once said that Mike Tyson at his peak couldn't even hit Mohamad

    Ali's backside.

    I think the player who bridged 80's and 90's was Poul Erik Hoyer Larsenn,when he

    appeared in late 80's he was too fast even for YY and Zhao, but I believe speed

    isn't everything and that players with exceptional skills and stipp pip faster players.

    Then again sometimes I watch the 1983 World Champs finals and I see Liem SK

    and Icuk smashing thru 3 sets non-stop and wonder,

    Perhaps it's possible to maitain a fast pace in doubles but not singles.
     
  11. frictionman

    frictionman Regular Member

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    IMHO present will always be better in the idea that
    1. we learn from the past.
    2. things and equiptment gets better that will give us more advantage or leverage.
    If two person (one from the past other from the present) equal in everyway but one is using a wooden racket and string and the other is using a Ti-10 with titanium string i think the latter will have an advantage over the other.
    3. new methods and ideas that enhances game play keeps popping around.

    maybe that's why old world records are being broken again and again by the newer generations. and that shows we keep on improving, enhancing, evolving to be better than our predesessors.
     
  12. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    True but speed and equipment is not eveything in badminton.

    I still remember Jim Hines clocking 9.98s in 100 m in 1968, how many people can do

    it today ? .

    Will you say that players like Pele,George Best or Maradonna can't fit into today's

    clubs?

    Men's doubles are different it was changed by the Koreans to sth like TT, one day

    someone will discover someway to nullify their advantage in speed.
     
  13. frictionman

    frictionman Regular Member

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    We're talking about MAJORITY of the world players here... not a few isolated incident.

    there are still only a handful of old records that hasn't been broken yet, but be sure sooner or later it will, like all the rest. coz that's where the road goes.
     
  14. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    -
     
  15. swijaya0101

    swijaya0101 Regular Member

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    Correct me if I am wrong ...

    Morten is one badminton luckiest players, because he is allowed to take an asthma medicine by IBF that can actually boost his stamina.

    I believe the past and the present are only different in their playing style ... as for the quality ... i guess they are just the same.
     
  16. Bbn

    Bbn Regular Member

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    Hi SWJ,

    I'not a fan of Morten but fair's fair.

    Morten was the first licensed player .

    Without any aid in the 80's with the help of equipment sponsors

    he toured round the world and played in practically every tournament and managed

    to enter at least semis of most of the tournaments. I think he only faded because of

    age.I think he was the world's first millionaire player in badminton,and is the perfect

    model for aspiring European players.

    i don't know if you've seen Rudy Hartono, his net play could put you in 3s adn 4s,

    I don;t think he has a peer in this dept. except maybe Hendrawan, or Zhao.
     
  17. swijaya0101

    swijaya0101 Regular Member

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    BBN,

    Agree with you that Morten is a very hard working players and he started from bottom.

    hopefully ... for all players around the world. bbn, how about Paul Erick? i dont know why there is no Asian players above 35 who still compete internationally (past & present)

    If i recall correctly, Morten was under training in Indonesia sometimes in 80s ... During the time in which Indonesian Team had never expected that Morten could beat their National Hero at All England ... but Morten did ... He won the All England by beating Indonesian Player ... (I forgot who the player was, was he Lim Swee King?).
     
  18. viver

    viver Regular Member

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    In my opinion and only my opinion ... Can't see any current player with overall skills compared with the older ones. BBN talks about Rudy Hartono. And who watched Tang Xian Fu, Hou Jia Chang play? Tang's excellent technique and strategy is a delight for who had chance to see. Hou's speed, reflexes and counter-attacks are unique - inviting his opponents to attack by sending the shuttles half-court.

    Zhao Jian Hua had physical problems and was never the same after the Calgary World Championships. He was one of the best in the last 20 years, if not the best. Evidence is the game (in badminton city) against Liem Swie King and think at that time he was about 18. Watch how he plays and compare with the current top players. Probably Bao Chun Lai and Taufik are the closest ones in terms of skills.

    True, badminton has changed. Players try to play faster - getting fitter, running faster, smashing harder. Is that really the way the game should go I don't know. Now wonder how old players like Fung Permadi, Hendrawan was able to stay at top playing their 'slow' and un-agressive game.

    And in my opinion, neither Fung Permadi nor Hendrawan can compare, technically speaking with Zhao JianHua, Rudy Hartono, or Hou Jia Chang or Tang Xian Fu.
     
  19. Kennyb

    Kennyb Regular Member

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    It's debatable to say who was/is the best badminton player. Zhao Jian Hua was very good indeed but I still think Yang Yang was better only because he won all four grand slam titles whilst no one else has yet - or have they?? :confused:

    I heard that Morton is now with Yang Yang's and Zhao Jian Hua's training camp, help training young potential badminton players...

    *Why do I happen to hear all these unusual stuff now?? Or are they true.....*
     
  20. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    So interesting this thread.

    I vote that Han Aiping could easily keep up with the current ladies singles players.

    Hendrawan is a very interesting player indeed. His net is really very good. But what is interesting is how he can change pace of the game. Against Peter Gade, he literally plays faster than P Gade in the first few points.

    Zhao got pneumonia before the 1985 WC in Calgary.

    Morten Frost? which other players have appeared in the WC twice? Morten's footwork is technically very good. Very smooth and change of pace is superb
     

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