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Past vs Present...

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by Matt Ross, Jun 28, 2003.

  1. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    if that fren think NSS favors power and speed players, then i say OSS favors stamina player who do mostly clears and drops. These are the more defensive type players. Have u watch han jiang. ardy W, foo kok kong play? Quite boring to watch if compared to today's NSS games. I will even give u explanation as to why your fren like YY so much. YY and ZJH types actually adopted more offensive style of play which make the OSS games of yesterday more exciting back in those days. When ZJH rip apart joko, does it make a difference of outcome what scoring system was used? No way Jose:D. OSS actually help ZJH because he only to to win 15 points, not 21. It takes more skills to be an offensive players . Defensive players prefer to react to opponent's strategic attack. Defensive players require less thinking, just keep the rallies long until the attacker ran out of energy and/or idea, and that's why OSS favors stamina players, less skills but more long lasting to play a rubber. If a player has plenty of skills, he would not let a defensive player to drag it to a rubber. I say that fren of your got it backward, NSS required more skills to win than OSS.

    u should get that fren to be a bf member and be educated about badminton:p
     
    #121 cooler, Nov 27, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
  2. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Dear volcom & cooler..

    ..have you read the 1st paragraph of my post carefully??..:p
    - It takes more technical skills to gain/earn a pt using the OSS. Yes, stamina is a factor. But in order for one to gain a pt, one can not get it if one is not serving. One might only be able to gain a pt after several exchanges of service (several minutes). In other words, it takes less effort to gain a pt in the NSS (pts could be gained from your opponent's error).

    - The notion that OSS favors a player with better stamina doesn't really jive with me. Esp. with the example of using TH, as we know he really is not known for his stamina. Yes, he can be considered more of a defensive player thus a technically better player; only relies on his technical abilities to survive.

    - No, unfortunately, i didn't get a chance to watch much of those greats in the 80s play (Han Jiang, Ardy, FKK, YY, ZJH etc.) So you're asking the wrong person.;)

    - I can try to ask that friend of mine to join BC, but i don't think he needs to be educated abt baddy as he could wipe my rear in Singles and probably yours as well (yes, the ABC guys know him), even if he's in his late 40s..;)
     
    #122 ctjcad, Nov 28, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2009
  3. arowana

    arowana Regular Member

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    what a brilliant post again
     
  4. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    I don't think Howard Shu is a "casual player". He should be among those young dudes training seriously 10 or more hours a week. Maybe ctjcad can give us more insight.

    Btw what do you expect from a 40-yr old guy with almost no training? :confused:

     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    huh, no training?
    In that private club where some national players train there.
    He is a full time head technical coach there, unlike KDM who has to study.
    He has free reign to use the club facilities, pool, sauna, tracks, equip rooms, the work. If ardy feels he's not up to it, he wouldn't had flown down there to compete.
    http://shuttler.tripod.com/shuttler/news/news003.htm

    yes, howard shu ain't casual player but still a no name player. i never heard of him b4. just look at the short video, Ardy's point mostly came from the net area, when he clear or receving clear, it's more than 50% he'll lose the point.
     
    #125 cooler, Nov 30, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  6. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    He has the facility for training doesn't mean he is under intense training. At least the coaches in my club do not seem to be training themselves. They just play for fun (and yes, they attend tournaments sometimes).

    There are thousands of "no name" players in China. Do you think LD in his 40s can kick their asses? :D

     
  7. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    u r just changing the subject from case example of Ardy W to what if LD. U haven't yet convince us on the ardy example case yet.

    Ardy is too expensive and serious to be jacking around with in this club.
     
  8. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    As far as i know..

    ..for Howard Shu's case, he is a national player (selected for this yr's U.S. national team:
    http://www.usabadminton.org/news/article/8770 and was selected to compete in last yr's Thomas Cup).
    He was the #1 Singles player, 2 yrs ago as a high school junior, for his age group in the nation.

    Age difference between Howard and Ardy is probably almost like a 25 yrs gap.:p
     
    #128 ctjcad, Nov 30, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  9. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

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    So what do you suggest here?

    A young folk training in the USA in PRESENT beat a WORLDCLASS player from the PAST who also involve full-time in the sport.

    Is age the only factor here, even with all his skills and experience? Could it perhaps that the past player just isn't as good as you have imagined, or the sport has evolved to a higher level today???? :rolleyes:

    To your last question. Yes, I would still expect a lot from an ex-worldclass player at only his 40s and play regularly at high-level.
     
  10. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    - Howard Shu is not some Joe Schmoe regular baddy club player. To be included in the U.S. national squad is not an easy feat. And doing it so at his relatively quite a young age.

    - 2nd pt, it's a combination of those factors. And age is a big part. Past players do have an "expiration date". Now, if one wants to compare a regular Joe Schmoe social baddy club player playing against Ardy (at his current age), then of course Ardy would most likely be able to beat that player.

    - That particular match, i thought Ardy wasn't prepared to compete, perhaps didn't train as much. Also consider the type of scoring system used. Perhaps Ardy could've won using the OSS??..Anyway, it could've gone either way as it went to a rubber game..
    http://tournamentsoftware.com/sport/player.aspx?id=70339577-139F-4F92-99DD-BD0589410C35&player=372
     
    #130 ctjcad, Nov 30, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  11. blckknght

    blckknght Regular Member

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    I'd have to guess that since Ardy's days of training and competing are over, he didn't enter a tournament because he wanted to win. He probably just wanted to play because he still likes badminton, and his skills and experience get him far without doing any training. If his reason for entering the tournament was to get as far as he could, doing a little bit of training and focusing on it would be second nature to him. I just don't think that was the case. He also probably didn't care very much that he lost, whereas if I were the young player who beat him, i'd probably care a lot, since i still have aspirations of going as far as i possibly could.
     
  12. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=155796&postcount=16 (2004 MS exhibition in calgary, MS contest only)
    Peter is only 4 years younger than ardy.
    Played OSS with peter who is also like ardy, not training much either.
    bottom line, old school of sit back and defend is no match of today who can jumpsmash unless defender can dive and recover quickly like lcw and ld.
    OSS isn't gonna save a old school player against a player of today.
     
    #132 cooler, Nov 30, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  13. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

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    Howard Shu maybe not Joe Schmoe regular badminton player, but he ain't anybody either on the international stage. I wouldn't be surprise if Ardy was beaten by a Chinese, Indonesian, Danish, Korean or Malaysian regional player, but a US national MS player is far far off from the standard of the world stage(Hint even Canada has more decent MS players:rolleyes:). And at his early 20s I bet he still has some way to go, but that's just means Ardy was beaten by an even lesser player.

    Nevertheless, it is just ridiculous to always assume OSS affect the game that much, the better player is still the player player, no matter how you count the points.

    I am not trying to discount Ardy. I am just trying to point out the fact that today's badminton has evolved to a higher level. And those people who always try to argue that the past players are more skillful is not enough to save their butt in today's game that has become much more intense.

    Bottom line? Today's players are stronger than the past, and the future players will be stronger than today.
     
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^Hmm..^^

    - Howard Shu is not in his 20s. At least not the last i checked. Did you read my post above abt Howard Shu (post #128)??..Like i wrote, the match could've gone either way (it wasn't as if Ardy lost in straight games or got owned). Perhaps the next time they meet and with a bit more training, Ardy would get the upperhand??..

    - No one is doubting today's players are "better" physically than past and future players will be "better" than today. But how abt technique and skill wise? That is open to discussion.

    - Yes, y'day's style of game and today's style of game are much different. Partly due to the training and conditioning.

    - Stay tuned...to hear more abt what i got from that M'sian friend (and a few other folks) on your questions.:cool:

    *cooler, you meant Ardy is not even 40 yet??..Peter Rasmussen is only in his mid 30s/35 y.o.
     
    #134 ctjcad, Nov 30, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  15. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    What I am saying is, a 40+ former World No.1 haven't been involved in systematic training for more than 10 years got beaten by a 20 yr old nobody training everyday is not surprising at all. On the other hand, if Ardy can indeed match a Chinese regional player, I would be surprised. :cool:

    Furthermore, stamina is a big problem. When you stop systematic training, stamina falls quickly. In 1997, ZJH beat the MSs (rumor has it that SJ is among the losers) from JiangSu when playing one game, 7 pts. If it's a 3-game, 15 pts match, ZJH will have no chance. But the fact that he beat those young players in a 7-pt game shows that, when both have full stamina, there is no problem for ZJH to keep up with the pace ~10 years after his era.

     
  16. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    u r changing your argument. ZJH is good because he's a breed different from his previous which is mostly lobs and rallies. ZJH and YY were more offensive than his opponents, similar to LD, lcw, Th, PG round circles around ZJH and YY's generation. Ardy is an old style players, that is why he perform worst against today's players than zjh or yy at same 40 year old too.

    U disbelievers are just beating around the bush on this topic. U didn't nor can't produce one bonafide example to show otherwise.
     
  17. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    national has different meaning depending how competitive your country's sport.
    A 19 yr old TH is at least 2 leverl better than howard shu but both are 'national' players.

    A 19 yr old howard shu may got into national team under different motive than say TH when he got into national. In short, one by merit and the other by charity.

    look at the current US ranking MS as of Nov 17. 2009
    1 Jinadasa, Nicholas
    2 Umrani, Ajit
    3 Lee, Hock Lai
    4 Shear, Ted
    5 Gouw, Daniel
    6 Setiadi, Arnold
    7 Vyas, Nisarg
    8 Pongnairat, Sattawat
    9 Davies, Neil
    10 Hussey, Ben
    11 Rossi, Sandro
    12 Shu, Howard

    come on, even in canada, #12 doesn't get into national team unless for charity reason. IMO, our mike beres, 36.5 years old, can beat all of the above MS.

    I dont mean to start a US vs CAN debate. I just want to show at what level was of howard shu.
     
    #137 cooler, Nov 30, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  18. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ^^Off topic-What is that ranking based on??..^^

    ..is that ranking similar to the current much talked about and much questioned BWF ranking??..Is the list reflective of the talent? Or is it based on how many tournaments a player entered (you forgot to list how many tournaments each player entered)??
    http://www.usabadminton.org/pages/1347

    Looking at the list, most probably Lee Hock Lai, who is not a U.S. citizen, is the best of the bunch.

    Check out this final list of MS qualifiers @ this yr's U.S. National team trial:
    Men's Singles:
    1. Sattawat Pongnairat
    2. Howard Shu
    3. Ted Shear
    4. Nicholas Jinadasa
    5. Matt Johnson
    6. Igor Marmer
    7. Yau Hwa Chan
    8. Arnold Setiadi

    What do you mean "one by merit and one by charity"??..You meant Howard Shu made the U.S. team out of charity??..If under different motive, mind shedding a light on that motive??..
     
    #138 ctjcad, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009
  19. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    If Howard Shu is just 2 levels below a 19 yr old TH, I would say his beating 40-yr-old Ardi is no surprise at all. Ardi around 40 is... I don't know how many levels below his prime LOL. :D

     
  20. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    obviously, u haven't read or kept up on my defintion of levels, to make your pseudo guess of level.:rolleyes:

    it is also obvious u have no fresh or strong stand alone case to support your view but only trying to discredit or poke holes on our example case -not working tho LOL

    I believe u would not do well under the NSS since it favors offensive and creative shot making players, not for the old reactionary and defensive type of players LOL
     
    #140 cooler, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009

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