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Past vs Present...

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by Matt Ross, Jun 28, 2003.

  1. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    There are so many holes in your argument LOL. For example, so you are saying ZJH could do better against today's player? In other words Ardi losing to young US player could not serve as evidence for "past cannot match present"? :D

    Btw, LCW is a defensive player. So is today's LD. More precisely, both of them are "counter-attack" players. In contrast, PG, TH, CH, XXZ are pure offensive players. Badminton is not as simple as "offensive strong, defensive weak". Furthermore did you forget CJ and LHI when you talk about "old style", "new style"? :D

    My opinion of styles, from defensive to offensive:

    CJ, LHI --> LCW --> LD --> TH, CH --> PG, XXZ.

     
  2. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    As usual, you cannot say anything with information and turn to personal attacks... :D

    At the pure amateur level (which I believe both you and I belong to), I don't think it matters which system is used. 15x3, 21x3, 7x5, 5x9, whatever. The one plays better wins, as simple as that.

     
  3. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    1. LOL, if i have so many holes in my argument, why did you follow up with more questions??? LOL, Show me those holes instead LOL

    Today's players are more omni-fensive than before. This is just common sense, we know more about tactic, skills, training, etc than previous players and coaches. Even the great tang fu knows more about badminton today than we he was at his peak form.

    Let me say this, when LD is playing, ALL his opponents are defensive players, period. LOLOLOLOL
     
    #143 cooler, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009
  4. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

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    Your post in contradicting. In one example you say the past great is no good because he stopped systematic training. Your other example then suggest the past great is still better than average(or much better) even after they are out of systematic training.

    Or are you telling me that Howard Shu is stronger than Sun Jun? (Since he is present? LOL)

    Why don't you just accept the fact that today's player are stronger and stop your non-sense? :cool:
     
  5. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    It seems you don't see the big difference between one game, 7 pts and 3 games 15 pts? :eek::eek::eek:

    ZJH at 32/33 has no difficulty adapting to the pace of the game 5 yrs after his retirement, but due to age and lack of systematic training, he won't be able to keep up with the pace for the whole game/match and therefore if it's a full match, he would definitely lose. Where's the contradiction? confused::confused:

    "past great is no good because he stopped systematic training"? Isn't it common sense that "any player is no good without systematic training"? :confused::confused:

    Just look at CH. 2 years out of national team (and he is indeed under systematic training, just not as high quality as the training he used to be under), he has already fallen to the level of a good provincial player. What would happen in 10 years if he stops training now, and spend his time walking around coaching kids and playing some local tournaments now and then? Would he be able to beat the a US MS?

    Therefore, a past great without systematic training losing to a young gun is not a surprise at all.

     
    #145 ye333, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009
  6. ye333

    ye333 Regular Member

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    I see your point: "offensive = strong", "defensive = weak". LOL. Answer this, is LHI a defensive player or not?

     
  7. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    u gone side way, again.
    we are talking about present vs current best. Lets not compare out of condition vs new condition. yes, wong8egg had highlighted the video of ardy losing to a young lad. This video served 2 purposes:
    1. that older generation tactic and skills are no longer potion enough for today's game. Past players have stamina but less speed. Today's top players have both.
    2. we acknowledged that aged players have higher mountain to climb to beat younger and lesser experienced players. It will be a case by case basis. The point was, at #12 ranking of a no powerhouse MS country, he still beat ardy the ex-pro with titles galore. Since ardy competed, surely he felt he has the chance to win and fit enough to compete.

    this thread is about debating point #1. Don't try to inject point #2 as our sole argument here. Point #2 is just a side menu, not the main course. By hammering point #2, u r going off topic. Show me the money on point #1
     
    #147 cooler, Dec 1, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2009
  8. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    So, here are the answers (as promised)..

    ..so here are the answers (as promised) from the same person i chatted with:
    - Probably not.
    - Sure.
    - Yes.
    - He has no sentimental feeling. Just from what he recall.

    Then i asked 5 other people, all varying from different ages, but who've watched YY and ZHJ play in the 80s. Taking into account both YY and LD are playing with the same racket equipment.

    Person A (another M'sian fellow, same age as the person i chatted with, in his 40s): He told me, in is opinion, it's very hard to tell since they came from different eras. But YY would win over LD simply because he could set up and not give LD much chance to attack.

    Person B (another M'sian fellow, older gentleman, in his 50s): He told me, in his opinion, LD would win simply because he's a smarter player esp. late in the match.

    Person C (another M'sian fellow but a younger generation than the others, in his 30s): He told me, in his opinion, it's hard to say. But technique wise YY would outmaneuver LD and would win over LD. He even tried to copy YY's style when he was growing up. He told me, the difference nowadays is that players are quicker and more explosive because of the level of training. If LD were to win, it won't be easy and the scoring system would matter.

    Person D (a HK fellow who've followed badminton for a long time, in his 40s): He told me, in his opinion, it's really hard to tell. The game and style at that time was different, a slower pace and a lot of rallies. LD would win but more so with the NSS. But if he were to win with the OSS, it would be a very tough one.

    Person E (an INA fellow, younger than the other 4 older folks, in his 30s): He told me, in his opinion, LD would win because he's much faster and has more stamina and power in his game. However he is not sure which scoring system would LD prevail in.

    So, there you have it. A gamut of frank opinions and no, they were given without any under the table deal..;)
     
    #148 ctjcad, Dec 7, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2009
  9. Wong8Egg

    Wong8Egg Regular Member

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    Thanks for replying. But what he said is contradicting.

    He believes YY could penetrate LD's defense but probably not able to outmaneuver him. That's require FHF smashing power plus extreme precision and I don't see anyone has that ability so far.

    It doesn't make sense that a player with less powerful smash could penetrate a more mobile player and not the vice versa.

    Ever wonder why today's MS use mostly low serve? The reason is simple, today's player can leap from the base and hit a killer shot unlike in the past that a high serve could give a server the advantage. That's explain today's player are more agile, more dynamic and fitter.

    I find it extremely annoying that people always use the OSS as an excuse or turtle shell for the old school player. The better player win and that's like the law of physics and it doesn't matter how you draw the equation. Peter Gade cannot beat LD in the OSS and he still can't in the NSS!

    LD is fitter, faster, stronger, more mobile, and has more stamina but people suggest that YY would win if we count differently?! (Look how Table Tennis has changed their scoring and guess who is still winning most? :rolleyes:)

    I remember each time when I beat the old folks in my club using the NSS , they blame the scoring. And when I beat them in the OSS, they blame their partner, lighting and blah blah blah...

    Feel free to pass on to your friend. :)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-IxzVuvziA&feature=related ;)
     
    #149 Wong8Egg, Dec 8, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  10. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i forgot coming back to this thread. You summed it up pretty good. :) but i might add a few later on;):D
     
  11. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Hmm..

    - Outmaneuver in terms of speed, quickness, explosive movement (we all know LD has the edge). But, according to that person, YY would counter or diffuse those with his more superior techniques, deception/trickery. According to him and most of those same people i asked, they said YY's defense is pretty good and would probably be able to absorb/handle LinDan's smashes.
    Another factor to consider is the equipment used during that time and now (if LD were still using the same racket technology as before, would he be able to generate the same smash? and vice versa for the older players). Yes, it's hard to tell/judge.
    The comparison was strictly based on each player's physical abilities/techniques.

    - I'll pass whatever you wrote to the person i chatted with, but i don't think it'll convince him to think otherwise.

    - Have you asked the same question(s) to some of your baddy friends (who actually watched YY, ZJH play) in your club?? What are their responses??..:confused:
     
    #151 ctjcad, Dec 8, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  12. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    i'm back:D
    let me begin on their comment on today's equips. In their argument for the YY and ZJH case, it is similar to excuses that wong8 got from the old folks, they lost because of NSS, if not, it's the lighting, floor, if not that,it is because of wong8's better racket, shoes, blah blah blah. During the peak years of YY and ZJH, they were using cab20, IMO, which is still a great racket, and form the core design of today's racket, all carbon fiber, seamless joint, 2U range (pros actually prefer U to 2U). There are players today still seeking cab 20/21/22, so i do not think their old cab20 made them perform anything less in term of racket performance. I bet YY and ZJU likely using bg65, today's LD uses bg65ti (during yonex sponsor years). On the string side, again, i don't see equip difference here that could influence performance difference between past and present. If your frens think the MP grommet, armortec shape frame, or the nanocarbon powder in the resin could help YY and ZJH to play better than today's pros, then i really question their confidence they have on YY /ZJH's natural ability in the first place.
     
    #152 cooler, Dec 8, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  13. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    again, i question their judgement. Back those days, YY and ZJH jumpsmash is really more like leapsmashing. Today's jumpsmashing is real full body lift, twist and leg kicking jumpsmashing. The latter is steep and harder smash. No comparison. YY has pretty good defense? maybe but pretty good is not good enough for today's MS, LD, LCW, SDk, etc can dive save as well. I have not seen YY or ZJH does full jumpsmashing or dive saving. One last point as well, today's MS can smash way more accurate than past pros. Steeper, harder, more accurate smashes, old pros don't stand a chance in these departments.
     
    #153 cooler, Dec 8, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2009
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    Very well & fair enough..

    ..thank you for your feedback, cooler. I guess you are entitled to have your own view as well as others are entitled to theirs. This topic and question is one of those which is open to debate and is really an open-ended one.:cool:
    Now, how about some other BCers', who've watched YY or ZJH play, views or thoughts or opinions??..
     
    #154 ctjcad, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
  15. AlanY

    AlanY Regular Member

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    surely with the ever increasing computer power that we have it must be possible to model all the pass and present players at their best and fight it out in the virtual world once and for all. cant be the difficult really, any takers?
     
  16. abedeng

    abedeng Regular Member

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    ZJH has probably the best deception in town bar nobody else. One might even say that his game very much depends on his deception working. This can be negated by the best defence in town during that time (Foo Kok Keong, Ardi Wiranata).

    Thus I would say that today's best players will run rings around ZJH. In fact, players like LD and LCW, even SDK/PSH could win by using their defence alone and keeping the rally going.

    On YY, it is true that he has among the best attacks and one of the better (not the best) defences of his time. However, in terms of penetration, I would not think that he could pass through LD or LCW's tight defences, and obviously, these two guys very good reaction speed for him to outmaneuver, even with his superior deception. His smashes are steep and the angles are difficult to return, but in terms of outright power, I would say that his predecessors Han Jian and Luan Jin are more powerful.

    Cooler is mostly right that most players of the previous era do more leapsmashing rather than full body jumpsmash. However, the more powerful ones, eg. Liem Swie King, Han Jian and Luan Jin really blasted full body smashes.

    However, I must say that deception is better among the players of the previous era than the current batch, maybe because the emphasis to outmaneuver your opponent then is less dependent on power and speed. There seems to be less deception now. If two players of these different eras were to go head to head, I do not think deception of the previous era alone has what it takes to negate the power and speed combo of the current players.
     
    #156 abedeng, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
  17. george@chongwei

    george@chongwei Regular Member

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    wow, so many 'useful' badminton information for me to see here:D
     
  18. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    the reason is previous era games are of slower pace which allow for more opportunities to do deception. Once the game pace is increased from both sides, speed will neuter the deception component:p Deception is quite useless when u r playing catch up. When u r a pace ahead of your opponent, deception is applicable, and come easy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS7ILAbETRY
    see? LD use deception too, when he feel he is steps ahead of KJ

    ask wong CH, why he didn't use deception on LD to get out a bad situation? LOL
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jfxc0dxTKaY&feature=related
     
    #158 cooler, Dec 9, 2009
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2009
  19. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    check over here:D
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68378
     
  20. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    funny how the 'younger' interviewee's think they know more about YY/ZJH than this older gentlemen who likely have had seen YY/ZJH more to draw his conclusion?:p
     

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