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Pronation / supination

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Borbor, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. Borbor

    Borbor Regular Member

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    Was browsing youku and came across some xiong guobao videos, and in one of the videos he was teaching his students to supinate their forearms in the preparation and then pronating due to rotation of the core as they strike the shuttle.

    I've NEVER seen it taught this way in badminton (not in my personal experience, although I've only had about 2 months worth of lessons. But neither CWH, ZJH LJB or even PR does it like that on any of the videos I've scoured online) . I have however came across similar teachings in another sport (one that chases a white ball around for 5 miles trying to put that ball into an insanely small hole given how big the playing "court" is :D). It makes sense to me in the context of that other sport (and I do find a lot of kinematic sequence similarities between the two sport) but I'm just wondering if there are methods to XGB's madness.

    It seems to me if I was going for a huge smash, this might add some extra juice to it because you really feel that snap cause by the rotation / pronation at the top of the stroke, but man it looks weird as well.

    Guess my question is has anyone tried this :D
     
    #1 Borbor, Oct 30, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  2. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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  3. Borbor

    Borbor Regular Member

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    Not asking HOW to pronate rofl. I've watched that video a ton of times.

    Maybe I should link the video in question instead so I don't get another answer like PCL's

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzc1NTI4Njky.html
    no subtitles, not my video
     
  4. betazone

    betazone Regular Member

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  5. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    I presume this is not common because it supinates too early and destroys benefit of eccentric pre-loading.

    I could be talking poppy cock, though.
     
  6. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    #6 visor, Oct 30, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2012
  7. Borbor

    Borbor Regular Member

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    Yah but if you saw the video where he hit nothing but backhands from the singles baseline to the 4 corners of the other court, it might look weird, but it's got some serious pop.
     
  8. bbirdman

    bbirdman Regular Member

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    Could you explain what you mean please Amleto? Do you mean supinating then rotating onto pronation at the last second?
     
  9. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    ^^ Just as in the split step, muscle pre loading helps make the upcoming muscle contraction more explosive and powerful. However there is only a short time frame of a tenth of a second when this occurs, so if it's done too early the effect is wasted.
     
  10. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    Yes, what visor said. As someone else knew what I was getting at, I can't have been too far off the mark :D

    I mean that making a small counter movement just prior to the movement you actually want to do increases explosiveness.

    That is the whole premise behind the split step - first you 'sit', then you stretch. The same philosophy applied to the overhead shot means that just prior to starting your forearm pronation you should supinate. If you are already fully supinated a la guobao, then this is impossible.

    Think of this scenario: You have to jump as high as possible from a standing position. Do you

    A) start standing, squat, and immediately jump up
    or
    B) squat, pause, jump

    I hope you will all agree that A) will get better results.
     
  11. Footwork_816

    Footwork_816 Regular Member

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    Doesn't pronation happen automatically as long as your grip is right and you lead with the elbow?
     
  12. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    I'm not sure what caused you to ask that question. It entirely depends on your wrist/forearm preparation.
     
  13. Footwork_816

    Footwork_816 Regular Member

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    if your grip is correct when you lead with the elbow the racket will make its back-swing and the strings will face sideways. then when when you start swinging forward your forearm pronates so the strings face the shuttle.

    I don't think you consciously have to think about pronation. In the video "Fu Hai Feng Teaches you how to Smash" he didn't pronate his forearm when he showed us the four steps in slow motion. In fact he said a lot of players injure themselves trying to too hard to pronate their forearm. However, when he actually did a smash you saw in slow motion that pronation still happened

    heres the video btw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH6qFJoySf8
     
  14. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    I still dont see the relevence to the rest of the thread
     
  15. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    ............................
     
    #15 amleto, Nov 2, 2012
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  16. Footwork_816

    Footwork_816 Regular Member

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    oh...nvm lol
     
  17. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    Hi there, just thought I would give some thoughts on this comment. Firstly, I have not seen it taught exactly like it is taught in this video, and I am not sure I entirely like it. However, its his teaching method, and it probably works given the fact that he was part of the strongest set of Chinese players ever (with yang yang and the great ZJH).

    I would say that getting students to supinate before they pronate is good preparation. However, you are correct it is not often taught explicitly in other videos. CWH does show it in his video, but keeps the instruction very simple (and doesn't talk about it). Peter Rasmussen has more instructional videos that you have to buy, and in these videos he shows supination and pronation, but just calls it "rotation of the wrist" and does not place great emphasis on it - note that is not to say he makes it seem unimportant, but he doesn't mention it as being any more important than the rest of the technique. ZJH doesn't talk about it in his lessons, but he surely shows it in his demonstrations - just like Fu Haifeng does in his instruction. LJB does not talk about pronation or supination (except once in one video that I can't remember much about) and again he focuses on "broader" concepts rather than specifics.

    With regard to pronating as a result of core (body) rotation, that is also correct. The pronation for a full power smash will happen as the last part of a kinetic chain - you leg pushes powerfully upwards, the hips rotate forwards, the upper body rotates along with the racket elbow, the arm extends and the arm pronates as the last part of the chain.

    From what you have said and from what I have seen in that video, I believe all the instruction is correct, but you are right in saying it looks a lot different to the way that the others coach it - most of them do not mention the forearm rotation specifically as far as I am aware, but trust that if you do all the other things correctly and naturally, you will achieve that anyway if you have the correct grip and correct principles.

    Thanks for posting a video I haven't seen before!
     

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