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pronation

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Wil, Mar 26, 2002.

  1. Wil

    Wil Guest

    Whats pronation I keep hearing about?

    Does anybody have a good video on Pronation from a top player?

    I can't remember how to smash no matter what I do need some advice I used to have a hard smash but now I dont.
     
  2. Slanter

    Slanter Regular Member

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    Hold a racquet. If you are right handed stand so that your right side is against a wall. Reach up with your right arm against the wall. Your wrist should be cocked so the racquet is horizontal with the butt pointing forward. In this position the back of your hand should be against the wall.

    Keeping the racket horizontal roll your forearm forwards so that eventually your thumb touches the wall. That movement is forearm pronation in near isolation from other body movement. Current thinking is that this movement is your major source of power in forehand shots. The opposite movement is called supination.

    In a full forehand power comes from the co-ordinated use of several other parts of the body, notably the hips, shoulders and wrist. All I do when I want to really cane one is make sure the racquet is in a good starting position and try to move my (relaxed) shoulder as quickly as possible while taking the shuttle high and in front of me. Centrifugal force takes care of the rest. Concentrating on the forearm or wrist often has the effect of introducing tension into the arm. As real racquet speed comes more from flexibility than mucular strength any tension will lead to a significant reduction in power.
     
  3. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly Regular Member

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    pronation & supination

    Good explanation of forearm rotation. Note that the forearm & racket (head) is pronated to make contact with the shuttle on forehand strokes (particularly inportant on overhead strokes). Supination is employed to make contact on backhand strokes (particularly overhead BHs).

    As Slanter suggests, an overhead foreheand stroke (and other strokes in badminton) involves a sequential "kinetic chain" of events. This kinetic chain actually starts with the feet & legs. The next link in the chain is hip rotation followed by upper torso rotation.

    Forearm rotation is one of the last links in the kinetic chain. Sometimes, squeezing the grip with the last 3 fingers may be employed as the final link. Actually , this use of "finger power" may be nearly simultaneous with the arm extension & forearm rotation links.

    Don't read any further unless you want to be thoroughly confused...

    In order to pronate on forehand strokes, the forearm is first supinated on the take back phase of the stroke. Likewise, on BH strokes the forearm is first pronated (on the backswing) & then it is supinated in the forward movement to make contact with the shuttle.

    For further confusion (or enlightenment), see the following from the IBF site:

    http://www.intbadfed.org/review.htm#BIOMECHANICS
     
  4. Wil

    Wil Guest

    Re: pronation & supination

    Should the racket head be hitting down flat? Or is there another angle that is better?
     
  5. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly Regular Member

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    Re: pronation & supination

    I'm not quite sure if I understand the query, but I'll attempt an answer anyway...

    As the arm is extended & the racket head is moving toward the shuttle (on an overhead stroke), it (the head) is intially approaching the bird on edge (it would appear that you are going to hit the shuttle with the edge of the racket rather than with the stringbed). As the racket head gets closer to the forearm is quickly pronated (for a FH) or supinated (for a BH) so that the racket face hit the bird squarely (perpendicular to the intended line of projection). This assumes the you are not attempting to cut the bird to impart extra spin to it.

    For a smash, it is best that the point of contact is slightly in front of you and the racket face contacts the shuttle squarely & at a SLIGHT downward angle. For a clear, the contact MAY be a bit more directly above your head with the racket face square & at a slight upward angle.

    Does this all make sense?
     
  6. Wil

    Wil Guest

    Re: pronation & supination

    I"m more confused then ever can Slanter give me in detail the wall excercise?
    So far I understand you stand side by side to the wall since i'm right handed my right side should be to the wall. I pull my arm up and cock the wrist.

    When you mean cock your wrist that means the wrist is just pulled back like throwing a ball right?

    So what happens when i swign through?
     
  7. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly Regular Member

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    Re: pronation & supination

    Note that Slanter is giving a description of pronation, NOT really an exercise per se.

    The cocking of the wrist in badminton is very similar, but not exactly the same as one would do for throwing a ball or spiking a volleyball. In these latter examples, wrist flexion is employed. This is not the case with badminton.

    For throwing (or spiking) a ball, the wrist is laid pretty much straight back. For badminton, it is similar but slightly different. w/o the racket, hold up your favorite hand up so that you are looking at the back of it. Grab your index finger with the opposite hand and pull it back. Your wrist should now be in a cocked postion.

    Return you hand to an uncocked position. This time hold your open hand up in front of your face so that u r looking at the thumb & index finger edge. Now turn your hand by rotating your forearm. If you turned your hand so that the palm faces away from your face then you've just pronated the forearm. If you, instead, turned it so that your palm faces you then u have just supinated your forearm.

    Note that MOST of your badminton strokes involve a combination of wrist cocking and forearm rotation (either pronation or supination). The amount forearm rotation employed is greatest for (flat) overhead strokes. Sliced shots & drives will use less forearm rotation. The underhand FH singles serve also uses quite a bit of pronation.

    Note that even tho' the wrist is cocked for most strokes, it should not be uncocked much (or at all) for MOST shots. The final snap comes (NOT from the wrist but) from the forearm rotation and/or the use of "finger power".
     
  8. buknoy

    buknoy Guest

    Re: pronation & supination

    from what i understood when u are asked to pronate.. yu twist yur rakcet so that it faces the front more.

    sometime i tend to face the racket a little to my left

    my opinion only
     
  9. RL

    RL Guest

    I think the simplist way to illistrate pronation is the turning of a door knob counter-clockwise with your right hand.
     
  10. Wil

    Wil Guest

    So when i cock my wrist back i'm looking at the top of my hand right?
    Then when i snap my wrist for a smash i should see my side of my thumb and index finger?
     
  11. Wil

    Wil Guest

    Re: pronation & supination

    I'm not great with directions but, when you mean rotate you forearm what the heck i'm i supposed to do? Do i just turn my arm in a circle motion?

    So how do i do i get a good smash by using Pronation?
     
  12. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly Regular Member

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    Nope. If u r cocking your wrist back for a FH overhead shot, u would most likely see the side of your thumb & part of your palm. Also, forget about the term "wrist snap"; it is very misleading. After pronation for the FH shot, you would most likely see the back of your hand.

    I liked the use of the doorknob example for pronation of the forearm. Supination of the forearm could likewise be illustrated by turning knob clockwise.

    Wil, if u r still having difficulty understanding or visualizing all of this, it would probably be best to have a coach or knowledgable player show you the techniques. Then when u come back to read these explanations, they will make more sense.

    Does anyone know any web sites that have good illustrations or videos on wrist cocking & forearm rotation?
     
  13. Wil

    Wil Guest

    My friend is a very good player he's teaching he tells me to turn my waist. I'm just looking and thinking what the hell will that do. Well coaching is out of the question because its very expensive. $50 dollars an hour who can afford that? When i dont work, Lee's badminton is very expensive I know that they coach well and have A players but my friend told me its not worth it.

    when you say turn the door knob what will that do for a smash when you tell me to turn a door knob i'm just twisting the turn knob to the left i dont see how that will help my smash. How will that help me smash and how do i get in position to do that it seems like it takes time to set up for pronation.
     
  14. TDotSmAsHer

    TDotSmAsHer Regular Member

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    Yea Lee's is expensive for private.. maybe their group sessions. heh
     
  15. Wil

    Wil Guest

    LoL how much is group $ 40 dollars? My friend learned byhimself and he's an A flight champion I have no idea how he does it. Its not like i'm newbie to this sport i haven't played in 5 months and i forgot to smash sometimes it's very fast and other times it's slower the molases.
     
  16. badrad

    badrad Regular Member

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    wil: pronation is one element of performing the smash. preparation - getting your body in the proper location, body in proper position, racquet up, etc. are all part of getting ready to do the smash.

    as for private lessons, you really need to look at the quality of coach before you hand your money over. there are many coaches that you pay them merely to feed shuttles to you over and over again. most coaches will give you some feedback, but (imho) not a lot of coaches will reveal deeper secrets or techniques of badminton to you. so they could be drilling you, but possibly not correcting some fundamental flaws. also there are many coaches out there that are simply filling in time, working a 9-5 job as coaches. they show little or no enthusiasm about the students they take in.
     
  17. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Wil,

    I was asked about this motion to somebody a couple of days ago. He also found the pronation part difficult (turning the racquet face outwards). we talked quite a bit on the subject. Then we had to move on to balance, waist movement, shoulder forward, relaxed shoulder, followthrough. This particular person is quite educated and there was a lot of discussion. In the end, I had to say "well, we can talk so much about this but it won't improve unless I start feeding you shuttles and you go and do it".

    His reply was (smiling), "you know, the more I learn, the more I realise how much I really don't know"

    I said "I still feel the same way for myself but I love the learning part"


    Pronation is one aspect of the smash. You could find a good player at a tounament and ask them how they turn their racquet face outwards. Some players won't even know how to explain it though. Just try to ask people to demonstrate to you. It may take a little while.
     
  18. Slanter

    Slanter Regular Member

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    Wil,

    Without pronating your forearm you cannot smash efficiently. Using just the big muscles for an overhead forehand naturally returns the racquet to the shuttle in a closed or slicing position, the face of the racquet is pointing to the left of an 'impact-to-target line'. You need to turn your forearm so that the face of the racquet is square to the target line.

    Not having a PhD in biomechanics I can't give you a simple explanation of why power comes from this action.

    There are many problematic misnomer's still left from the period when people misunderstood the biomechanics of badminton and relied purely on their subjective experience. Some of these are 'wrist-snap', 'wrist-cock', even 'power' is less than helpfull. Put your right arm out in front of you with an open hand with your thumb uppermost. Keeping your arm still move only your hand in an upward direction, note that it probably wn't go far at all. That is a wrist-cock. Move only your hand down. Once again it won't go far (about 45 degrees). That is the 'wrist-snap'. It doesn't make much intuitive sense but it is true. If you move only your hand to the right then left you get what most people call the wist snap but it is actually what professional golfers call a 'bowed wrist' which leads to a 'slap' at impact, losing power and accuracy.

    Power is actually racquet speed through impact. If you swing fast along the target line and return the racquet square to the target line at impact you get a big hit.
     
  19. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly Regular Member

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    Misnomers

    Good explanations Slanter, but I would take issue with a couple of points. I don't think that "wrist snap" has a precise definition. When I hear the term, "wrist snap" it brings to mind the wrist moving from a flexion (bowed wrist) position to an extension (where the wrist is curled on the follow-thru). I believe that most people interpret "wrist snap" this way; it would appear to be a rather imprecise & confusing term as well as an incorrect action.

    The up and down postions of the wrist/hand as you descibe them are adduction & abduction. These do play a somewhat MINOR role in badminton strokes. you are correct when you say that the range of motion for these wrist actions is not substantial. Altho' they are employed to a degree, it is probably not that all that important when explaining proper badminton strokes to most people.

    The properly cocked wrist is one that is flexed with some degree of adduction. Altho' the wrist is cocked it should not be moved in a manner that results in wrist extension. This action would probably produce the 'slap' that you mention. This should be avoided for most shots in badminton.

    As the thumb is pushed forward on a backhand movement, some amount of abduction results. This abduction, in turn, assists in the supination (rotation) of the forearm. It is the supination, along with some finger action, as the final stages of the stroke that is of paramount importance in delivering power to the shuttle.
     
  20. Slanter

    Slanter Regular Member

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    Re: Misnomers

    Perhaps we need a common badminton language - badmintonese? As gregr points out in seeking to reduce imprecise terminology I use one myself. The other side of the coin is that using too much scientific jargon confuses most people even further.

    In attempting to answer Wil's questions I am faily sure that we have made matters worse. Go and see a highly recommended coach, Wil. Ask him/her to show you the basics of shot production. If they start talking jargon or breaking the shot down into constituent parts say "Excuse me coach, I asked you to show me not convert me." It really is the only way to learn. Once you experience how a correct shot feels you can reproduce it.

    If you need recommendations for good coaches ask in a new thread in this forum giving your area of residence.
     

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