# Record of walkover and retired between same country player since 2006

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by limsy, Oct 2, 2011.

1. ### chris-ccc Regular Member

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You have a good point there twobeer when you commented (which is very true);
"The number of WOs between CHN-CHN players are obviously bound to be bigger as they meet in so many more matches".

But when you read this comment from limsy (Post #97);
you will understand what limsy is saying.

Even before limsy started to work on these statistics, based on current observations, whenever there are CHN-vs-CHN matches, I would say that 1 in 4 matches would end up as a walkover or a retired match. This is rather shocking as I compare Badminton with Tennis. For a RUS-vs-RUS Tennis match, I could expect only 1 in 100 matches that it would end up as a walkover or a retired match.
.

#121
Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
2. ### laonong Regular Member

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Rates is an important measure for comparison of two groups if you want to see the difference. In this thread, Limsy want to show the Chinese players has higher possibility of WOs than other countries. So we need a rate of WO per country if the sample size is large enough for the comparison.

Just like some medical researchers claim that smoker causes lung cancer and Tobacco company disagree. So you need to compare the lung cancer rates between smokers and non-smokers. You need to find big population for both groups.

3. ### laonong Regular Member

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Only if rates for other countries is totally different then you can claim that China players are more likely to WO.

4. ### twobeer Regular Member

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First of your math is plain wrong..

4 WOs out of 22 matches is 18,18%
7 WOs out of 34 matches is 20,59%

Secondly.. I think anyone that been studying up on statiscis know that based on these small samples here could be big statistical errors. And further more as has pointed out earlier.. Even if it DOES indicate that WO against a national team-meber is more likely than WO against a player from another cuntry, there really is not anything based on the statistiscs that would point to that this is unique for CHN.

Just an example based on your own statistics, that should underline the problem with small statistical samples...

Germany
[TABLE="class: cms_table, width: 510"]
[TR]
[TD]total[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%
[/TD]
[TD]100% (infinite% with you calculus)

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Does this prove that Germany is the worst WO kings???

#124
Last edited: Oct 31, 2011
5. ### laonong Regular Member

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Sample size is too small for Germany.

6. ### twobeer Regular Member

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Yes, and too small for China as well, that is my point

/T

7. ### laonong Regular Member

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Tennis is individual sports while badminton is team sports.

Rus players are playing for themselves: big bonus and sponsor money.

8. ### chris-ccc Regular Member

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So... we now have an explanation as to why Chinese teammates often give walkovers to each other.
.

9. ### lucida Regular Member

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To dicide whether to give a walkover, the player has to consider the chance to win. If some player is injured but the opponent is weak, he may choose to play. But if his opponent is too strong, he will consider twice about it, because more severe injury may happen. Some people say Roger Federer has received too many walkovers. The reasons are complicated, but you have to admit his opponents would think more before the match.
Tian Qing/Zhao Yunlei received a walkover from a Korean pair. If their opponent is not a Chinese pair, would they still do that? I won't deny some matched are "fixed", but it's really not that common.
And don't forget there are many retirements from Chinese players to foreign players in this French Open.

10. ### flite Regular Member

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Statistic are based on historical facts. The number of times/frequency certain events took place. LD winning records in all tournaments so far compared to other players are statistic too.

So based on your argument of how all the calculation should work out, LD number doesn't look as good as it was LMAO!!

I know there are plenty of people who are still being ignorant that tobacco is hazardous to health. They chose to ignore all the facts given where they can see with their own eyes.

So there is nothing we could do with this group of people HERE.

11. ### Yoppy Regular Member

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You still dont get the point or pretend to dont get it? I dont know. Go back to your campus and ask your statictic lecturer, and he says that Limsy stat and conclusion is wrong, then he should be sacked from the uni.

You many times pointed that we are bias fans of LCW (which is not entirely true) making all sort of accusations. But actually it is very clear now that in the face of clear cut stat results that someone like you is clearly a bias fan of CHN team. Not to mention your very favourite brand is Li Ning.

So how about this, lets stop pointing your finger of us being biased and get down to the very fact and objective discussion? Shall we?

12. ### laonong Regular Member

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I thought you knew

13. ### laonong Regular Member

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I do not think you understand statistics. Grab some basic statistic books or google

14. ### laonong Regular Member

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I do not think you understand statistics. Grab some basic statistic books or google

15. ### limsy Regular Member

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ops,the total match between china and china for ms and ws was 18 and 27,i made a mistake theres
sorry

16. ### eaglehelang Regular Member

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Please do the calculations & do up a table from 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 & see for yourself. Historically,etc, as a country, on China's percentage of walkover & retired. It's higher than other countries, doesnt take a math genius to know that. It's much faster to calculate those from other countries cos just click, click - "oh, played all, ok, done"

It's no point you argue sample too small lah, China meet own team mates more cos they have more strong players lah, etc,etc. Even if calculate last 5 to 6 years, China's trend is same. You can accept or not accept, the percentage is such.

17. ### limsy Regular Member

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correction,thanks twobeer

[TABLE="class: cms_table_grid"]
[TR]
[TD]wang zm[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]16.67%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]lin dan[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]40[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]2.44%[/TD]
[TD]30%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]du pengyu[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]28[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]bao chunlai[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]chen jin[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]41[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]chen long[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]43[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table"]
[TR]
[TD]total[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]206[/TD]
[TD]14[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0.48%[/TD]
[TD]22.22%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

for note,i take out chen jin meet with zhou wen long and lin dan against wen kai since they dont participate in international tournament regularly

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]jiang yanjiao[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]4.167%[/TD]
[TD]18.18%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]li xuerui[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]22[/TD]
[TD]5[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]16.67%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]liu xin[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]23[/TD]
[TD]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]4.167%[/TD]
[TD]42.86%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]wang shixian[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]29[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]wang lin[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]13[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[TD]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]7.14%[/TD]
[TD]100%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]wang xin[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]11[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]wang yi han[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]36[/TD]
[TD]9[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[TD]0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[TD]0%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

[TABLE="class: cms_table_outer_border"]
[TR]
[TD]total[/TD]
[TD]against other country player[/TD]
[TD]against own country player[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]play until finish[/TD]
[TD]178[/TD]
[TD]20[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]retired or walkover[/TD]
[TD]3[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]%[/TD]
[TD]1.66%[/TD]
[TD]25.9%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

i take out other china ws who are not in the list above,and exclude team event
again we can see a significant different between two

this is after the correction,thanks to twobeer

china player only walkover/retired 4 times in 384 matches(against non china)1.04%
china player walkover/retired 11 times in 45 matches(against own teammate)24.44%

#137
Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
18. ### eaglehelang Regular Member

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Btw, since you mentioned about doing the stats & we already mention the way to search for it(with examples), perhaps you can draw up the one for other countries. I mean, since you asked about it in the 1st place. It's from the BWF ranking site

19. ### chris-ccc Regular Member

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Thanks limsy for redoing the calculations.

Even without the calculations, we can see that roughly 1 in 4 of their CHN-vs-CHN matches would be a walkover and/or retired match.

This is not good for people who bought expensive tickets and going to the venue to watch them play. Refund of money should be given.
.

20. ### twobeer Regular Member

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Thanks for the effort to correct your statistics.. It is interesting, but I think it should be pointed out that a sampling based on 45 matches is quite small.. And the real interestiting question is if this is different from china-vs-china compared to other same-vs-same country matchups.. The other countries same-vs-same statistics are so much smaller so statistical sampling gets even smaller.

As I have posted earlier, it would really suprise me if matches between training-partners didn't differ statistically in length, number of WOs etc. compared to matchups between non training-partners, so the interesting question is if it would be any different statistics if DEN, KOR, MAS, INA or other country had 45 SS tournament meetings between their players who trained together on a daily basis. This one is not easy to answer.. But I think that is really the interesting question..