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Shame on the commentators for claiming LD vs CL was not played for real

Discussion in 'World Championship 2013' started by galaxyduo, Aug 9, 2013.

  1. galaxyduo

    galaxyduo Regular Member

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    Sorry I had to open up a new LD vs CL thread on this. But I was saddened by what the commentators implied during the match (I believe it is Gillian Clarke commentating for the woman, but I'm not sure who the guy is). First, this is their accusation during the match after the point is won by LD at 14-14 of the second set to make it 15-14 for LD at the 0:58:06 mark in the video:

    I'm going to analyze and respond to their comments in point 12) below. Now I don't think LD and CL faked the match today and I will lay out my evidence below. Having said that, throwing matches in badminton is not new - yes, it has been done by China before and other countries, especially in the 2012 Olympics. And I've also seen very questionable matches by LD before - I just refer you to LD vs Sony Dwi Kunicoro at the 2012 Thailand Open before LD won the 2012 Olympics (especially the last 2 points by LD to lose it, WTF?):


    [video=youtube;erkQsRHh4m4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erkQsRHh4m4[/video]

    And yes, I also think LD quitting at the Singapore Open in 2011 due to a stomach flu was also very suspicious. As for the LD vs CL today. I can definitively say they played for real. Here is the LD vs CL match on youtube. You can fast forward to the 0:57:50 and 0:58:06 marks of the video to view the controversy:


    [video=youtube;-pnq5but1xM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pnq5but1xM&list=PLA7ZcagI0frApLWJdhOSdn26UAlnyKzPX &index=6[/video]


    Here are my reasons why this was a serious match and both player played to their best capabilities:


    1) Some of you say CL wasn't playing as aggressive and wasn't smashing as he was before in the first set. But how can you play aggressive and smash against LD when LD is hitting every shuttle perfectly into the backcourt in the first set? Proof of this? At 14-10 in the first set, CL let's the shuttle fall down. The shuttle lands right on the line. LD simply didn't hit any half court shots for CL to smash in the first set. And when CL did smash from the backcourt, LD defended it easily.

    2) This slow pace is LD's new style. LD is no longer the Super Dan of 2008. You can see LD changing his style by the last Olympics. LD was very defensive when he won the Olympics in 2012 compared to the Super Dan of 2008. So if you complain about LD playing slow and more defensive, it's not LD acting, it's just LD's new style of play.

    3) At 13-10 in the first set, you can't act out a hanging shuttle on the net. Bad break for CL.

    4) At 15-10 in the first set, you can see CL go for the kill. The umpire calls against him. CL's reaction was quite natural. If he planned to throw the game, I doubt he would have wasted much time contesting the call.

    5) At 17-10 in the first set, CL is fighting vigourously to win the net. CL doesn't want to lift. He loses to probably the best single's net player in the world and LD cleans up (sorry LCW fans, LD is king of the net in singles).

    6) At 18-10 in the first set, LD finally lifts it short. One of the few times LD makes a mistake in the first set. CL cleans up with a smash immediately.

    7) 20-13 in the first set. I don't know CL is supposed to defend that. In summary, LD played perfect in this first set - I would argue that he played better in this first set against CL than he played against LCW at the 2012 Olympics (IMO, LD made so many mistakes in the first set against LCW at the Olympics). And CL suffered multiple bad breaks in the first set - I refer you to 1), 3), and 4), and 5) which are impossible to act out.

    8) 3-3 in the second set. Short lift by LD, CL cleans up.

    9)5-4 in the second set. Not so nice kill against LD. No way CL hits that if he is out to lose purposely.

    10) 12-12 in the second set. Short lift by LD, CL goes for the immediate kill. The smash by CL is ALMOST PERFECT. Unfortunately, the defense from LD is 100% PERFECT. What is CL supposed to to?

    11) 13-13 in the second set. LD finally lifts it short several times. CL goes for the kill smash each time. What can CL do if LD is playing perfect defense?

    12) 14-14 in the second set. One of the BEST rallies in the match. A PERFECT on the line shot is what it takes from CL to beat LD today.

    However, this is also the most controversial part of the match. The female commentator (Gilian Clarke?) claims that a short lift early in the rally, at the 0:57:50 mark, CL could have moved back faster and power smashed it. Please read her full comments above.

    I examined the 0:57:50 mark very carefully and IMO, CL is wrong footed at the 0:57:50 mark. His feet placement are aligned horizontally (rather than staggered). If you play enough badminton, you know that having your feet aligned horizontal makes it easier for you to move side to side to defend smashes, but you are slower if you try to back up. In addition, Lin Dan tries to push it over CL's head at the net. So we have two pieces of evidence:

    i) CL's feet are aligned horizontally, making it more difficult for him to back up.
    ii) LD takes the shuttle at the net.

    Put i) and ii) together, it's natural that CL couldn't get into a position to power smash it. It's not a fake play by CL at all.


    13) 16-16 in the second set. CL goes for LD's body again. Just tlike 5-4 in the second set. Not very nice of CL against his senior if CL plans to throw the game.

    14) 20-20, second set. You can't act or fake an on the line shot.

    15) CL is focused throughout the match. His body language clearly shows he is taking the match seriously.

    16) This isn't the Singapore Open. This is the WC, the most prestigious badminton tournament this year on Chinese soil. LYB can piss on the Singapore fans. But no way LYB is going to piss on his own fans in his own country.

    17) LD has too large of an ego now to give up a free win to CL. As for CL, he is China's future star and LD will slowly become an irrelevant player on the national team as he ages. And both are capable of beating LCW right now. I can't see LYB asking LD to lose because LD's ego is so big now, he probably wouldn't like it much. And I can't see LYB asking CL to lose either because CL is China's future star and it does no good for CL's future if LYB asked him to lose. Also, this is not the type of event where China's prestige is at the forefront unlike the TC/UC/Olympics. So I think LYB let them play it out.

    I understand with all the match fixing in the past, people have doubts about China. But it's ridiculous to claim this match was fixed - simply open your eyes, look at the proof, and it's obvious this match was played 100% by both sides.
     
    #1 galaxyduo, Aug 9, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  2. indrg

    indrg Regular Member

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    C'mon already! Chen Long froze and he was tentative. Lin Dan was not spectacular but he did just enough capitalizing on Chen Long's silly unforced mistakes.
     
  3. gundamzaku

    gundamzaku Regular Member

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    ok, well i don't think CL SHOULD try harder, but i do WISH that CL would play more aggressive. i do not think CL threw the game out, but i think he felt the pressure and was outperformed by LD. looking at LD, he's quite a bit slower than before the long break, so if he meets LCW in the finals, it will be a fun game to watch, IMO. :)
     
  4. kenjai7373

    kenjai7373 Regular Member

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    what did you expect from gillian clark and the british commentators? :D
     
  5. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

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    Like everyone said n asked, CL has nothing to lose so why was he playing so "casually" or "cautiously"? We had seen the more serious or worried or pressurized CL in other games when he lost, today did he show those emotions/state?
     
  6. kaitamasaki

    kaitamasaki Regular Member

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    Hey OP, I do agree with you. China vs. China matches were always a bit of a put-off for me, especially Lin Dan vs. Chen Jin ones in the past.

    But people going as far as to say every match is acted or whatever is just being a bit ludicrous.

    When I watched this match, I personally felt it was a real game, where Chen Long wanted to win. If the counter-argument is that CL wasn't playing his usual form, its because he IS against Lin Dan. He knows that, if he wins against LD, he has a good chance to take the gold - LCW has proven to not be up to par the last two times they met (or was it even more?). This was CL's chance to prove he is the new MS king of China.

    Strategically, its not like LD is easy to play against. We saw that against Chong Wei Feng, he kept limiting CWF's speed and attack. The Chinese commentators said it well - LD controls shots to the back very accurately, and since he is naturally deceptive, and has such a good defense, you're not going to want to just try to take your chances are smash it down. I saw in plenty of rallies that Chen Long had a good opportunity for a smash that would take the point - smashes that wouldn't have been defended by more than a few men on this planet (no exaggeration). LD gets them back, and when he does, he plays counter-attack and waits for you to screw up at the net. Psychologically, you're not going to have the confidence to smash as much anymore, knowing it might expose you instead.

    Sometimes when you're playing against someone so good, your confidence is just undermined and you don't even kill when you want to. I've seen instances of Bao Chunlai not killing a mid-court lift against Lee Chong Wei, and Lee Chong Wei not killing Lin Dan either. Heck, you could say LCW is acting against LD too because he doesn't dominate and attack as much as he does versus the other players.

    Analysis aside, Chen Long showed his frustration many times. He tried to change up the strategy by using the drift against Lin Dan in second set, and doing long painful rallies hoping LD would mess up first. CL might have succumbed to too much respect, as well as internal pressure, just as how WZM did so poorly against LCW, despite the stars seeming to align for WZM.

    Its really hard to say. Other matches have seem controversial to me when the players aren't their usual self. But this match, it seemed more like they were playing a very careful game of chess, but LD edged out due to experience, having no coaches on either side.
     
    #6 kaitamasaki, Aug 9, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  7. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    it is pretty well understood that Gillian Clark is anti-Chinese.
     
  8. galaxyduo

    galaxyduo Regular Member

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    How do you play aggressive against LD when LD is hitting every shuttle within inches of the back line without any short lifts? Smashing so deep is just a waste of energy. Please read my analysis for the number of short lifts LD makes in the first set. I analyzed the first set very carefully and LD makes very few short lifts in the first set.
     
  9. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

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    Agreed and noted. However, how abt u Kwun? Your personal opinion on tonight's match between LD n CL. Me personally feels that somehow there is a little voice behind CL's ear. "Don't try too hard, or else ......."
     
  10. kaitamasaki

    kaitamasaki Regular Member

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    First, CL does have a lot to lose. World Championships occur once a year, and this is his prime time. There's a lot of expected pressure as 2nd seed, he's going against his idol who's been given a wildcard and ranks 286, and knowing that if he won, he could have a good shot at beating LCW for gold.
     
  11. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    galaxyduo, your pt 17 sums it up beautifully.:)
     
  12. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    The commentators should not have said what they said. But to be fair to them, there are lots of precedence, even if this is not one of them.

    In your own points 16 and 17, there is no mistaking you implied that the players are not their own bosses when it comes to who wins in internal battles. Before the match, I think almost every one of us is thinking
    a. will LYB let LD win
    b. will LYB let CL win
    c. will LYB let them fight it out
    This happens way too often in CHN v CHN matches.
    So, I'm not surprised it came out of the commentators' mouths, though they shouldn't have said it.

    My own conclusion for today's match: c.
     
  13. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    honestly, i don't think they are playing 100%. but i don't think that's unreasonable given it is a Chinese vs. Chinese match. and it is not only the Chinese, on average the excitement level is lower when we have players playing against opponents from their own country.

    as for whether CL is giving away the match and whether it was planned, it is hard to say. there is a certain sense of respect when it comes to the Chinese team and it'd not surprised me if CL paid that respect. however, it'd also not surprise me if it was ordered to be that way. however, to be honest, whether it is CL vs. LCW or LD vs. LCW, the odds are not much different.

    as for Gillian Clark, even though there is a sense of them not playing hard, i find it unprofessional for them to actually say it. the anti-Chinese tone generated by GC for all her commentaries isn't good for the sport. we need to unite to promote and foster badminton instead of setting such divisive tone in commentaries that are destined for an international audience.
     
  14. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    The commentators should not have said what they said. But to be fair to them, there are lots of precedence, even if this is not one of them.

    In your own points 16 and 17, there is no mistaking you implied that the players are not their own bosses when it comes to who wins in internal battles. Before the match, I think almost every one of us is thinking
    a. will LYB let LD win
    b. will LYB let CL win
    c. will LYB let them fight it out
    This happens way too often in CHN v CHN matches.
    So, I'm not surprised it came out of the commentators' mouths, though they shouldn't have said it.

    My own conclusion for today's match: c.
     
  15. sautom88

    sautom88 Regular Member

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    See, I agree w Kwun saying that somehow something is not right (not all out game by CL, I am not sure about LD because he hardly play lately). But those commentators are not doing badminton any good by their negative comments, badminton should actually bring people all over the world together.

    Maybe the match was not 100% fixed by LYB, he could just said it casually to CL. You don't have to try too hard to win over LD. He is one of us anyway and he is yr senior. Also, it doesn't really matter who win tonight as long as he can win again in the finals against LCW.

    As for LD, LYB does not have to say anything to him, for fear of LD retaliating against his wishes. Maybe he 'sabotaged' LYB by losing his games previously. :confused:
     
    #15 sautom88, Aug 9, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  16. gogor

    gogor Regular Member

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    be honest/be accurate, please!
     
  17. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    People in China and people in the UK see things very differently. They behave very differently.

    Some think loyalty is the most important thing in life whilst some think honesty.

    We can only hope that China and the West can co-exist in peace.

    Thank goodness we have the Internet and Badminton Central. :)
     
    #17 pcll99, Aug 9, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  18. galaxyduo

    galaxyduo Regular Member

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    Maybe Kwun can fix the quote? Yup, he said three games. Typo by me.
     
  19. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

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    Surprised you can write so much about one comment in the entire match. The majority of the time they attributed CL passive play to him playing against "his sporting idol" (lost count how many times) and perhaps showing too much respect because of it. I voted for it to be a slugfest but I think CL could have earned an oscar nomination today [​IMG] [O s c a r , not Raspberry]
    Should have grown out of that childhood hero cr*p by now ...

    New style of play? What new style? The same one already in the making since after the real Super Dan in 2008? It was already dangerous and close to suicide to play aggressive against him but on the brink of defeat you might as well go for broke and leave it all out on the court. Not today apparently ... (unless you want to call that smash into the net the prime evidence of the counter argument :D)

    Add oil, burn the rainforest
     
    #19 demolidor, Aug 9, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  20. Justin L

    Justin L Regular Member

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    My guess is that both Chong Wei Feng and Chen Long (I shan't mention Sattawat Pongnairat and Eric Pang for obvious reasons, no disrespect to them) were more or less caught by surprise by Lin Dan's new style when they are actually better prepared for the usual Super Dan style, not necessarily the Beijing 2008 version but at least the London 2012 one.

    My concern now is, assuming XXF's revelation that Lin Dan is only back to 80% of his best is true, then how is this new Lin Dan going to beat the highly motivated and in-form Lee CW who was often bested by the 'old' Super Dan style? This new Lin Dan style may have surprised,confused and disoriented Chen Long in this WC QF encounter as he was clueless what to do i.e. when he tried to outmanoeuvre Lin Dan he couldn't gain any advantage, yet when he tried to play an aggressive attacking game, Lin Dan could read his game and practically return most of the shots effectively often with interest.

    But the same element of surprise and unfamiliarity may not work well on LCW, I worry. That's why, I still feel that Chen Long who has virtually figured out LCW's game, of course with the help of his great Chinese coaches, and beaten him the last two encounters, not to mention the earlier meetings in 2010 and 2011 - makes him my preferred choice to take on LCW with as good chances of success as previously, I'd like to believe.

    My apologies, this may not be the proper thread to discuss my concern. So,yes, the LD vs CL match was for real, absolutely.

    Lastly, just wondering, if CL has the services of a coach, XXZ or Li Zhi Feng or Zhong Bo, anyone, would the outcome be any different?
     

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