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smash factor

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by WhiteInk, Jun 12, 2009.

  1. WhiteInk

    WhiteInk Regular Member

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    i've did some search and don't remember seeing a topic discussing this issue.

    Which factor do you guys think that MOST affect the power of your smash?
    I know the answer is ALL, but how about the most important factor?(assuming you got all three correct)

    1. power of arm?
    2. technique?
    3. speed of racket swing?
    4. birdie?
     
  2. William86_98

    William86_98 Regular Member

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    Order of ranking in my opinion

    0) (but shouldnt' be a factor) Birdie....super squished birds go FAST

    but seriously

    1) technique (ability to hit square, proper angle of smash)
    2) racquet speed
     
  3. uncle_peanuts

    uncle_peanuts Regular Member

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    your definition of technique is too vague. factors such as weight transfer, chest up, wrist snap, arm pronation, arched back etc are all part of the smash.

    strength is also a very important factor in smashing power. players get most of their power from their legs (quads, hamstrings) and back. the power is transferred through their legs to arms so having decently sized pipes help too.
     
  4. drifit

    drifit Moderator

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    the truth....... ;)
     
  5. bradmyster

    bradmyster Regular Member

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    thats all pretty much rolled into technique.
    Strength is a seperate issue, but how you use it and transfer your strength into your shots is all through technique.

    The better your technique the more successful the power transfer and more powerful the output of the shot will be.
     
  6. gamepurpose

    gamepurpose Regular Member

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    I think when peanuts said power is transferred through the legs and the back to the arms, he talking about vibration power. as we understand, if we have a long pipe or let say a long flexible pole? When we strike at one end it will woable? =) (lol nice term eh?, i dont know, hope u get the image), then we will feel the other end moves too.
    Well don't know if he means by that. But I think that's what it is. Because we you do jump smash, you're in the air (as a long flexible pole in the air) your leg bend, then straight them out right just before you contact the bird, (that's kind of like you know, the pole bend and send the extra power)
    So yea I do believe legs and back does create extra more power, but all should not forget that there are many factors of creating power to the smash. So don't just judge one thing that creates the most power for the smash and forget other small factors.
     
  7. krisss

    krisss Regular Member

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    I would say , 2,3,1,4
     
  8. uncle_peanuts

    uncle_peanuts Regular Member

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    thats not what i mean. it has nothing to do with vibration power. all of your smashing power does not come from your wrist, thats where the power is transferred too. when you jump, youre power comes directly from your legs and core. that power is then transferred through your body to your arms and wrist. your back gives you that extra snap when you forward.

    btw, you dont have to bend your legs to do a successful jump smash. many advanced players and pros do it because it gives them even more power when they kick out.
     
  9. gamepurpose

    gamepurpose Regular Member

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    I don't know if you really mean saying i'm hundred percent wrong here or not, because seem like you're just thinking the jump smash power is totally come from you legs and core. Because i would totally disagree with that, Like i said there's are many different factors that can create power in jump smash. Maybe it is true that MOST, and only MOST (please read carefully and starting saying again) power from your leg and core. Like i said (I do admit the term vibration is not a good word for this example) but the leg and the core will increase your jump smash power because (maybe we could use the word leverage) the motion of you're body bending position does create the power.
    And you please explain the word successful jump smash. Because to me successful jump smash consider as a perfect jump smash. And if you eliminate 1, just 1 factor that can create more power to you smash, then that is not perfect no more. Don't use your experience to think about it, use your commensense to figure out. Only use your experience to explain it when and only WHEN you're the fastest jump smash player in the world and if and only if at the same time you do study about human body structure, and study about the body motion for jump smash at least maybe couple years. Then that is the only way I'll take you advice from your EXPERIENCE. So far from your information is so plain, too many error.
    1. You disagree that wrist can create more power to the smash. (Then y when I only use my wrist to hit the bird, it still travel for a distance, even when i lay on my back relax all my other muscle, wouldn't that consider as some kind of power to sent the bird away from me? I don't care if it's a very small power, but power means power .01 percent still bigger than 0, that is basic math skill)
    2. here is kinda confuse me. If you're saying in jump smash we use leg power, then tell me something in which part of power do you use the leg to help when you don't move them. Jump straight up, and just does move or bend them, just totally relax them, then how on earth can a power be transfered to the arm? If you know your physic well enough MOTION = power, if motionless mean no power. (don't use the word heat = power, true but there is no heat from your leg if you don't move them)
    I do believe you might find your information some where maybe from peter rasmussen. Sure he is a good player, but did he or anybody teached him to say the power of jump smash is all come from the leg and the trunk?
     
  10. Athelete1234

    Athelete1234 Regular Member

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    1) technique: how to use power effectively and also how to hit the exact sweetspot on the stringbed
    2) racquet speed - the faster speed = faster smash = more power
     
  11. William86_98

    William86_98 Regular Member

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    i think i would disagree with the point where in a jump smash, power is transferred to the arms and wrist from the legs. this does not seem to be physically possible. i think the only bonus that the legs give to a smash in a jump smash is that the jump results in the body being higher up off the ground, therefore, there is greater potential energy due to gravity. however, it would be physically incorrect to say that the legs give power in a smash while you are in the air. The core and back does contribute directly to the hit down, but the legs don't.
     
  12. bradmyster

    bradmyster Regular Member

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    you may need to go back to school physics then. Because legs do transfer alot of power in a jump smash. Watch a player jump smash when he curls his legs up then kicks them hard as he smashes.
    Legs and core strength is very important to increasing your power aswell as a number of other things such as shoulder/torsoe rotation, wrist strength, racket speed etc etc etc.
     
  13. WhiteInk

    WhiteInk Regular Member

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    Actually all the tranfering of power from certain part of body to certain part is definately too technical for most here.
    Most ppl here just wish to get the technique right, give a good smash and from there if they are interested they can go into more theory.

    like going into a fight, do you really like transfer power from the left hand to the right hand before throwing that punch power X2?
    no right?

    I guess what is most important for most BCers here is to understand how body movement and body momentum can help in a more powerful/effective shot.

    Body momentum that result in harder shot can be controlled, but transferring of power to certain part of body is something you can't control without proper momentum.

    So let's discuss something more practical then something so theory. :)
     
  14. William86_98

    William86_98 Regular Member

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    First of all, if you had read the thread, you'll notice that i was responding to this comment:

    I do agree that the legs do contribute to the power of a smash. However, it is definitely not true that "when you jump, .....that power is then transferred through your body to your arms and wrist." particularly when the poster adds that "you don't have to bend your legs to do a successful jump smash." I do not agree that power is an entity that can be physically transferred in this way (similar to heat transfer) from legs to wrist. Even without this point, in this situation, the jump described is only a vertical jump, with no leg curl or kick afterwards. Thus, the only force created is vertically upwards. Explain to me how it is possible to "transfer" this purely vertical force by the legs into horizontal/angular force by the arms/wrist?

    With the curl and kick as you describe, this changes the situation, but not in the way that you stipulate.

    During the execution of a jump smash, the leg "kick" that you describe is a COMPENSATORY rotation of the lower extremity in order to offset the forcefully swinging arm so that total body angular momentum is conserved (necessary according to laws of physics). Therefore, the leg acts in REACTION to the armswing. If you watch this clip carefully http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIYbsGYT4m4&feature=fvsr you'll find that the leg "kick", which is really more of an extension, occurs AFTER (just a little bit) the wrist and arm have begun rotate forwards. Obviously, when the armswing is powerful and goes faster, then the legs will "kick" faster to compensate, making it seem like the player is actually forcefully kicking the legs out. However, this is an illusion, since a player obviously initiates the smash by swinging his/her arm forwards, and NOT by kicking the legs out. The kick-out as a response, and is not the conscious priority of the player. You do not smash by kicking, you smash by hitting. To explain the situation more clearly, an example from another sport is the soccer kick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBMA2wWuqh8 When the player contacts the ball (creating "counter-clockwise" angular force), his upper body and head compensates by leaning forward (clockwise angular force). Obviously, a strong core allows him to kick with more power, but we wouldn't say that the strength of his upper body and head leaning "transfers" power to the legs for him to kick.

    Thus, the actual direct power of the smash comes from the arms/wrist/upper body. Nevertheless, the legs and core are critical also. Strong legs and core will provide the stability that the upper body requires in order to swing and hit at the fullest power potential. However, the legs DO NOT contribute to the smash power by "transferring" power to the wrist. Again referring back to the video..you'll see that after Lin Dan is in the air, his legs hardly move, his upper body is what's doing the work. His legs only extend to compensate after the swinging motion has begun.

    Just because you "feel" a certain way when you play or just because things "seem" to look a certain way in a video doesn't mean that this is physically what is actually happening. I am providing this argument based on the scientific knowledge available to me. If someone with a better understanding of the physics behind this motion comes to correct me, I will certainly keep an open mind and be accepting. But to be told to "go back to school" simply based on how something looks in a video (without actual analysis), or due to how something "feels" during play, I would find these to be thoughtless arguments.
     
  15. blindfury

    blindfury Regular Member

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    now, when you say pipes..... lol
     
  16. uncle_peanuts

    uncle_peanuts Regular Member

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    i dont know how much clearer i can be. when you perform a jump smash the majority of the power comes from your LEGS. racket speed, wrist snap, forearm pronation etc are all important factors but if one were to rank the most important in terms of sheer power, then the legs generate the most.

    the reasoning is simple; your legs are the strongest muscle group in your body. if you cant utilitze them in a smash, your smash will never be strong. no matter how big your arms are, how big your chest is, how fast you can swing a racket, how amazingly strong your wrists are, if you dont have strong legs, you'll never be able to smash hard! if you have the upper strenght of a professional badminton player, but the lower body strength of a normal person, your smash will be decent, but not hard. if you have the lower body strength of a hockey player (something explosive) but the upper body strenght of a normal person (assuming in both cases you have good form) i 1000% gaurauntee you that the will smash harder in the second case.

    another example: stand stationary and try to smash as hard as you can without turning your lower body. you'll find that this is quite difficult since you can only use your wrist and chest.
    now try turning your lower body as well as your upper body. as soon as you do this, you are utlizing your whole body (IN PARTICULAR YOUR LEGS) your smash will be significantly harder

    btw, the kickout has very little to do with the energy coming up, it's strictly there because it's the most natural thing to do when you curl your legs up: to kick out. you are looking a bit to much into that

    my reasoning is absolutely not based on what i see, ive been playing badminton for a long time and i know the correct way to do things. technically, my knowledge is limited, but from what i understand, your understanding of the physics behind the smash is a bit skewed. although the theory is right, you are using it in different context.

    edit: btw, i do not have to fully curl my legs to preform a hard jump smash. although my legs are slightly curled, they are not to the extent of ld or lcw or those pros
     
  17. uncle_peanuts

    uncle_peanuts Regular Member

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    that is 100% untrue. ask any professional coach about that topic and they will tell you otherwise. your power comes from you legs, transfered all the way through to your wrist. your wrist is only so strong, you cant just hit a 300KM/hr smash from your wrist or upper body alone.
     
  18. drifit

    drifit Moderator

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    uncle,
    are you a coach? level 3 coach?
    your technique on this is true.
     
  19. uncle_peanuts

    uncle_peanuts Regular Member

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    nope not a coach but ive been taught by some very good people
     
  20. kinoko

    kinoko Regular Member

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    uhm... it does contributes. in fact i doubt that gravity due to your jump's height play the part. from my experience, i used my leg to jump to get the angle, but more important, i use my leg motion to help me stretch my torso. and for those who does jump smash, u know what next =).
     

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