Thanks for visiting us!

Badminton Central is a free community for fans of badminton! If you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community users, it takes less than 15 seconds! Everybody is welcome here.

Click here for a FREE account!

Speed test: should I strike as hard as I can?

Discussion in 'Rules / Tournament Regulation / Officiating' started by nixem7, Oct 6, 2010.

  1. nixem7

    nixem7 Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2009
    Messages:
    5
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Germany
    I am not sure, what "full" means here... Should I try to send the birdy as far as I can? Or I am only allowed to use the whole strength, but it is not necessary? If my opponent says, the birdy is too slow, because he can't send it to the doubles line according to 3.2. But I guess, he doesn't apply himself to 100% intentionally, or even if he actually does... I am able to strike it so hard, and say - it's not my problem, the shuttle is correct. Who is right? :confused:
     
  2. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9,825
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    @Hollanti
    [video=youtube;-AZbQBR90Yw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AZbQBR90Yw[/video]
     
  3. terencechan

    terencechan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia
    This is the dumbest test ever. Common sense will tell you that a big strong guy is going to hit the shuttlecock a lot further than a weak person. The other variable is racket type and string tension.
    These test just shows how dumb the people running BWF are.
     
  4. xavYPC

    xavYPC Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2009
    Messages:
    185
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    malaysia
    hehe i guess we need to invent shuttle testing machine since human testing is not consistent....but again i dont think it will affect much since pro player know how to adjust after few stroke in the rally...
     
  5. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,527
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Designing and producing quality feather shuttlecoc
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    It is obvious both of you do not understand the flight properties of feather shuttlecocks. The test used is perfect and contrary to what you think strength is not a requirement. A feather shuttlecock is a high-drag projectile and strength alone doesn't get you far.
    I am double or triple the age of some of the players I play with. Many young players who are more muscular than me cannot hit even within 2 feet of the minimum distance using the correct speed feather shuttlecock for the hall temperature and altitude.
    The test speed is calibrated for the advanced player to test accurately. It is not suited to the average player to conduct a proper test. This of course means many players end up playing technically correct speed shuttlecocks without being able to fully enjoy the game due to inability to hit from back line to the opposite court back line. This is especially true for the ladies. One solution is to use a faster speed shuttle, say in Malaysia from 76 to 77.
     
  6. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,379
    Likes Received:
    46
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    To my mind, this makes it a poor test. If an average player has no way of getting the right shuttle speed, then we don't have a "perfect" test.

    Yet it's the only test we have. :(
     
  7. Sevex

    Sevex Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    278
    Likes Received:
    2
    Occupation:
    Academia, CFD/ wind engineering
    Location:
    West Berkshire, England.
    I can't get the hang of the shuttle speed test technique, care to do a coaching video Gollum? :p. Like most things in badminton it has nothing to do with strength, I have seen it performed by ladies perfectly easily, it is all about the technique. Yet I am perfectly capable of clearing full court (when in the right position) with no effort at all.

    If someone has the right technique the shuttle doesn't fly out the court, it just goes faster, so the test is correct, just not easily performed and I don't know anyone who practises it, as it isn't used in a game. If people who were strong hit the shuttle further do you not think this would apply to all shots in badminton? I don't see Lee Chong Wei hitting clears long all the time, rather the shots go faster.

    I test shuttles by warming up with one out of a tube. I know how far the shuttle should go when clearing under no pressure, if it flies out the back it is too fast, if it goes nowhere or a lot of force is needed to get it to go anywhere then it is too slow. Not entirely scientific but it works ok.
     
  8. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2003
    Messages:
    4,379
    Likes Received:
    46
    Location:
    Surrey, UK
    I probably will do at some point. Kudos to Paul, though, for making one already. :)


    Strictly speaking, if the shuttle is hit faster at the same trajectory then it will land at least slightly deeper. However, the high-drag of the shuttle tends to make the difference much less than one would expect: if you hit it at twice the speed, it doesn't travel twice as far, because the increased air resistance rapidly decelerates the shuttle again.

    Nevertheless, I would expect to see some difference in the result depending on who hit the test. I reckon that, compared to any amateur player, LCW would get a different result testing the same shuttle. ;) Maybe not hugely different, but he would hit it longer. Sometimes that could make the difference between the shuttle being deemed correct, or being deemed too slow or fast.

    As you mention, players rarely practise this test because it's not used in the game. This makes it difficult to perform the test well.


    A player of LCW's standard can easily hit clears well out the back of the court; he has plenty of spare power for clears. To make them land in, he just reduces the power (or, if playing defensively, increases the height).
     
    #8 Gollum, Oct 19, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  9. GoDLee

    GoDLee Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2010
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    English teacher
    Location:
    France
    You'd better hitting it good instead of hitting it strongly. Technique is all. I dont see why argumentating. Most of the topics created by newbies can be answered as simple as that.
     
  10. terencechan

    terencechan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia
    The argument is about the method currently used to test shuttle speed. It's obvious Taneepak is not aware of all the variables that influence the result of the test and distort results. Sometimes, people take things like shuttle cock speed for granted. We need a more accurate and scientific way to measure shuttlecock speed.

    The variables that can distort the test results :
    1. Racket Material - These test were available during the era of wooden rackets. We've transition to steel, aluminium, and now graphite.
    2. Racket Weight and shaft flexibility
    3. String type and tension
    4. Angle of shuttle flight.
    5. Strength of the person testing. Even for the advanced player, they're strength can vary quite a bit due to age and build.

    Badminton was invented during a time when we didn't have hand phones, or color TV.. It's about time they upgraded the rules and their testing methods.
     
  11. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,527
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Designing and producing quality feather shuttlecoc
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    For your information I produce feather shuttlecocks. None of the above points are valid.
    Feather shuttles are designed with the following parameters and features: center of gravity, drag coefficient, total mass, geometry and material. chassis, skirt detail, spin detail, cork, must drift and then drop (gyroscopic behavior). They are also made in various speeds for different environments. altitude being the biggest factor and hall temperature a minor one.
    The test has a range of distance and shuttlecock speeds are based on testing by advanced players, which is used as a standard. Of course if you are not an advanced player then it would be better to use a higher speed shuttle, especially ladies.
    Pls note strength is not a factor in testing. It is your skill level.
     
  12. blindfury

    blindfury Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2006
    Messages:
    633
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Toronto
    Oooooooooooooowned!
     
  13. terencechan

    terencechan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia
    Yes, shuttlecocks are made to fly at various speeds to suit different environments. Tournaments played on higher altitude use slower shuttle cocks and opposite is done on lower altitudes. I agree with that.

    However, I'm afraid you are wrong on the second point. It's not better for ladies to use higher speed shuttle cocks. They don't use a faster shuttlecock for ladies in international tournaments. The reason shuttlecocks are manufactured at different speeds is to ensure the shuttlecock flies at the SAME 'acceptable' speed whether the game is being played on a high or low attitude.

    You are also wrong on the 3rd point. Strength does play a factor. If 2 person are of the same skill level, the other factor that can affect their power is strength. That's why not every player playing in international tournaments can smash at 300 km/h.
    Another example, say if Lin Dan was 50, he'll still be considered an advanced player and beat the crap out of most players. Surely he won't forget his technique, but he'll lose strength and flexibility.. thus will lose considerable power.
    The defect is not in the shuttlecocks, but in the test. There are a bunch of other factors that will throw the test results off. I need not repeat them again.
     
  14. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9,825
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    @Hollanti
    You seem so sure power makes a huge difference performing a standing "underhand stroke" ...

    If you ask 10 persons of different shape, size & gender at your average GP, testing the same tube, you are not going to see huge differences ...

    But to take away the human variable I guess you could use one of those shuttle feeder machines like the Knight Trainer :D
     
    #14 demolidor, Oct 21, 2010
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2010
  15. visor

    visor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    13,663
    Likes Received:
    292
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    After reading thru the thread, imo the answer is it depends...

    For a beginner to perform the shuttle test, I'm pretty sure he won't be able reach the baseline with a proper shuttle even if he gave 120% power in his shot! :p:D

    For an intermediate, he will likely use 80-90% power to hit a proper shuttle to the baseline.

    For a pro, I'm sure he'll only need 60-70% power.
     
  16. bazzaman

    bazzaman Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2010
    Messages:
    201
    Likes Received:
    0
    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    HK
    I think most people interpret strength as being big or muscular or both.
    When in badminton you need to be lightfooted and have a supple wrist.
    Yeah sure a body builder could play well but would be relying on pure strength because he could.

    Oh and Taneepak do we get discounts on your shuttles :p
     
  17. terencechan

    terencechan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia
    You know.. I could be wrong about the difference in power on the underhand stroke cause' I've never managed to get a few 'advanced' players to do the test. However, I do believe that if you ask Lin Dan to hit an "underhand stroke" as hard as he can when he was 19, compare that with a stroke that he would hit when he's 50.. I think there should quite a bit of difference. Power generated by a flexible and stronger person .. against an old stiff fellow.. um.. who knows?
     
  18. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    6,527
    Likes Received:
    6
    Occupation:
    Designing and producing quality feather shuttlecoc
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    You may be surprised that it is easier to execute a clear from back line to the back line on the other side than to pass the shuttle speed test.
    Just try it and you can see what I mean. For Malaysia at sea level try with a speed 76 shuttle of a high quality shuttle that is used in tournaments.
    A mere foot difference in shuttle speed test is effectively more than a foot difference in a clear.
    I am not suggesting that tournament women players use a slower shuttle speed than those used by men tournament players. What I am suggesting is that players who are not advanced enough to clear the shuttle speed test, especially applicable to the less advanced weaker ***, would be better off using a higher speed shuttle.
    Now please try this if you are in Malaysia. Use a speed 76 high quality shuttlecock and try out the speed test. Most recreational players will fail to reach the minimum distance by at least a foot or two. One foot short is one speed short.
    Many recreational players will initially complain that a higher speed shuttle (say 77 in Malaysia) is too fast and they constantly hit out. Such complaints are almost always from shots hit at mid-court or near the net. The real test is to do a clear from back line to back line or to lift or clear from underhand at the back line to the opposite court back line. If you cannot do this but still complain the shuttle is too fast, based on shots hit at mid-court or near the net, then you are not advanced enough.
    In the speed test please don't cheat. The shuttle must be struck over the back line, not in front, in an upward movement.
     
  19. demolidor

    demolidor Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    9,825
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    @Hollanti
    That's just it I guess: where do you get from it should be "as hard as you can"?

    [video=youtube;46TTQtSLrKs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46TTQtSLrKs[/video]
     
  20. terencechan

    terencechan Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Malaysia
    I wouldn't consider myself an advanced player.. but I can routinely beat the shuttlecock with an underhand stroke back to a chair where I keep my bag and shuttlecocks about 10 feet behind the court from mid court. The shuttle speed is 76. I've got to try the test from the back line when I play later today.

    The correct shuttle speed should be no less than 53cm (1.7 feet) and not more than 99cm (3.2 feet) from the back boundary line. That's a 152cm (5 feet) range. You said 1 foot shot is 1 speed shot. With that I conclude that there are 5 shuttle speeds within the "correct" shuttle speed range. The range is way to wide for a game that can be won or lost in centimeters. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the above is true, the 'advanced' player should be able to put a shuttles with speeds from 75 up to 79 within the 'acceptable speed zone'.
     

Share This Page