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sub-standard umpire gave a free point to Okuhara in first set

Discussion in 'BWF Destination Dubai World SS Finals 2015' started by sojayen, Dec 13, 2015.

  1. Airos

    Airos Regular Member

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    There is the chair umpire, the match referee, the service judge and a whole host of line judges. Would it hurt to add one extra score-keeper who double checks on the umpire's score?

    Mistakes are human, and I am sure none of these were intentional mistakes.
     
  2. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    What we need is to simplify.

    If no one noticed it at the time, it was because the umpire needed to do a lot of mental gymnastics in a matter of a few seconds.
     
    #22 pcll99, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  3. amleto

    amleto Regular Member

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    No, this is absolutely the wrong design. The challenge workflow should remove a point from one player and give it to the other when configured by the umpire, or, do nothing with the points (again when configured by the umpire.)

    The option to do one way or the other would be a simple check box / yes/no pop-up. Adding a hard-coded timer is just asking for trouble and panic from the user.
     
  4. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    In software, whatever the default is will be be picked by almost all users. I see no reason why that should be different for umpires. In particular, what if an umpire forgets to configure their preference at the start of the match? Can you elaborate how precisely your envisioned workflow would look like with the default settings? From what I understand, upon seeing a challenge, you suggest (with no timers involved in any step)

    1. Umpire enters score (which side won the rally according to line judge)
    2. Umpire presses one of the two challenge buttons (for who is challenging). While it is rare, we sometimes see players challenging against themselves. Or do you want just one button?
    3a. If the player challenged for themselves (as usual) and the challenge is successful, reverse the last point.
    3b. If the player challenged for themselves and the challenge is not successful, keep the current score.

    If that is the case, how do you deal with umpires forgetting step 1 in the heat of the moment? That would result in a very similar error, with one point being deducted.

    The alternative of doing nothing with the points is even more troubling: What if an umpire accustomed to the above scheme inputs the decision of the line judge before pressing Challenge? That would lead to precisely the error we are discussing, wouldn't it?
     
    #24 phihag, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  5. visor

    visor Regular Member

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    Yeah, we don't want to add any complicated score delay mechanisms to potentially complicate and confuse the umpire or players.

    I think this error occurred because WYH was slightly delayed in challenging and also the umpire jumped the gun a bit soon in attributing the point to NO, and then forgetting to reverse it (as most umpires would have done in all the other cases I've seen of attributing the point before the challenge is called.)

    Surprisingly this hasn't occurred more often, at least not on YouTube in the videos I've seen.

    No one else in the whole arena noticed this error because the umpire is ultimately trusted with the authority of keeping the score.

    Perhaps after this incident, there'll be some assisting score keeping responsibilities that can be assigned to the service judge, since he's already there and his workload is not as demanding.
     
    #25 visor, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  6. phihag

    phihag Regular Member

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    The service judge is already tasked with assisting the umpire in general. Since this is the first time we are aware of a miscounting ever happening, I don't think the need there is a pressing need to fundamentally alter any responsibilities. If it happens more than twice per season, that may change.

    In any case, how is the service judge supposed to notify the umpire? I mean, the choice of hand signals between facepalm (you idiot, didn't you learn to count in kindergarten) and flailing arms (hey, snoozy! You're being stupid again!) is quite difficult.
     
  7. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I think, what happened is that a small mistake in umpire's workflow led to the unfortunate mistake in the score.

    I believe that the umpire has changed the score too quickly... I was tought to first look at line judges, announce "service over" quickly if needed, look around a bit more and only than change the score at the same time as the score been announced.

    I think the umpire changed the score immediately after it was called "out" and way before the announcement... That's why he forgot the score was already entered when he was "distracted" by the challenge.

    I agree that this happened because the IRS is quite new, the workflow is not polished yet and umpires don't have enough experience with it. I don't think there is a need to change anything as suggested options are sure-way to more mistakes... I am sure the umpire committee will note the problem, umpires will be given instructions how to avoid it and it will not be likely to repeat again.

    By the way there is a "fail-safe" already built in. One of the jobs of service judge is to follow the score so there are no mistakes there. I guess the service judge was also distracted by the challenge, as well as players, coaches, line judges and everybody else... :)
     
    #27 stradrider, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  8. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    double post...
     
  9. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Don't know if there is a system in place at all or if it has not been taught and or learned but I have seen big inconsistencies with the way umpires deal with the challenge scenario. I have seen the following -
    Not adding any score until hawk eye decision
    Adding the score but taking it back before HE decision
    Adding the score then reversing it after HE decision
    No score called until HE decision
    Score called then reversed

    No matter when he says challenge, Basically if the umpire is not overuling himself then he should be entering the score and calling it clearly before hawkeye result everytime. If hawkeye challenge comes back succesful he is always in the position that the score needs changed both ways again and stated. A lot of the umpires seem to be of the mindset of "let's see what happens first"
     
  10. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I agree about the inconsistent umpiring of the challenges. I think that umpires are not used to it since it is rather new and used infrequently.

    The rules and instructions for challenges are exact and don't need changes in my opinion.

    The player should challenge line calls immediately. That means that no new score should be announced or changed on the scoreboard before the challenge. We are challenging the line judge call, not a score, right? Ideally, no score should be announced or dialed immediately, so that the player has a chance to challenge - but after the score has been announced no challenge should be allowed.

    After the review, the umpire should say "correction in(out)" or "challenge (un)successful", "<score>" and announce "<player's name>, <nr.> challenges remaining".

    The way I understand it, the scoreboard should only be updated once, together with the new score announcement after the challenge.
     
    #30 stradrider, Dec 14, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
  11. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Yeah your right I looked at the docs. Seems the way they have it set up is open to error because many times I have seen the score used before HE makes decision (slight delay or auto pilot for umpire). Must be a natural reaction for them. Bearing this in mind I disagree with you it would make more sense to adapt the system so the score call etc is made and stated before HE. Umpire isn't overuling so that is right for the time and if he is corrected the score is changed and stated again. Less chance of mistake if he is constantly communicating out loud as well so would be better for them and all others concerned.
     
  12. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    I don't know... Do you think announcing the wrong score will reduce the confusion?
     
  13. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Well it is the right score until corrected, then if so everybody is waiting for the correction.
    At the moment It is too easy for them to initially input the score for whatever excuse then after HE takes its minute they could forget and just revert to their training which tells them only one point to the correct side. My way is more fail safe.
     
  14. stradrider

    stradrider Regular Member

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    What you suggest will create new mistakes while still not guaranteeing the cure... What if he forgets to change the score but deals it back after the challenge? :cool:

    I believe the less unnecessary steps - the better ;) . Again, the challenge is for the line calls - it's not logical to announce the new score before the correct line call is made.
     
  15. craigandy

    craigandy Regular Member

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    Disagree seems to be natural for them to change score after a "happening" be that the end of a rally or after a correction from hawkeye. So I say let them. If he forgets to deal the score and announce before HE it will be noticeable to players, coach, everybody. At the moment it's just silence and a wondering after HE correction as to whether the umpire had a quick finger natural reaction whilst no one was looking.(as in what happened in the game in this thread)
     
  16. opruh

    opruh Regular Member

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    Aww poor Wang Yihan, but still a great game between the two ladies.
     
  17. necrohiero

    necrohiero Regular Member

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    Or easier: have 2 or 3 special umpire (or line judges) to count with a manual scoreboard, but only as a guide. So if there are differences, someone neutral could realize. I saw some Japanese high-school tournaments in YouTube, and there are 2 manual scoreboards, so if someone made a counting mistake, they can correct it between each other.
     
  18. pcll99

    pcll99 Regular Member

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    Have the service judge keeps scores instead.
     
    #38 pcll99, Dec 15, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2015
  19. necrohiero

    necrohiero Regular Member

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    Or that. Pretty logical
     
  20. samkool

    samkool Regular Member

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    exactly...
     

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