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Taufik Hidayat

Discussion in 'Indonesia Professional Players' started by taufik_lin16, May 12, 2006.

  1. Giga01

    Giga01 Regular Member

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    Haha! I am here again to post a new "correction"(lesson learned from this: Don't ever use only the BWF site for H2H stats before 2007 or something) .

    Taufik vs Bao is 4-4 because of Taufiks win in 2003 Sudirman Cup and Taufik stats vs Lee Chong Wei are actually 5-1(AG win added).
    LD was also ahead by 4-5 by the end of 2006(2005 Sudirman Cup added).
    Lin Dan was(and still is) very, very hard to beat when he represented his country,winning against TH in team AG and losing in individual is one fine example, whereas Taufik was not. I'm pretty sure someone knows those stats.
    Also,please correct me if I got something wrong again.

    And, cawali, I think that being able to win the big ones, the ones that really matter is a VERY important attribute of any sportsman. There is almost no such thing as "happened to be major ones".
    I'm pretty sure that now that Lee Chong Wei would be happy to trade at least 2 of his Super Series wins over Lin Dan for one OG or WC medal win...
     
    #1161 Giga01, Oct 7, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  2. Licin

    Licin Regular Member

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    Black market trade ? :D :D

    Well, winning OG and WC are every players dream. I believe, if LCW could engage into such transaction with LD, LCW will ask LD to pick any of superseries's medals he wants to for OG medal or WC medal.
     
  3. Giga01

    Giga01 Regular Member

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    I would not say that QF at the 2000 Olympics really is an "early round elimination". In 2008 he lost very early, yes he did. In 2004 he won the Gold medal. At the 2012 olympics you could not really blame him for losing early, after all he met Lin Dan in the round of 16.

    And he did not only win 3 major titles but 4, you forget that he has won Asia Games twice. Winning twice in 4 tries isn't too shabby. I'm sorry to say that not even Lee Chong Wei has won four majors,With heavy emphasis on won.

    I believe you and I read the statistics somewhat differently, because the only players right now with a better win vs loss balance stat than Taufik right now is Peter Gade, Lee Chong Wei, and Lin Dan. Stat-wise he might be the worst of them but arguably not achievement wise. And he was ahead of some strong players during his prime... 5-1 vs LCW is not a bad stat and so is 7-2 vs Chen Hong( by comparison BWFs H2H Lin Dan vs Chen Hong is 5-5 and Chen Hong vs LCW is also 5-5).

    To actually be able to win 8 times over LCW and "only" losing 13 times to that are also not bad numbers( LCW stats vs Peter Gade is 16-2 to compare again). Many players struggle to take even one set from Lee Chong Wei. If there is one thing Taufik isn't it's your regular player. He is not even your average top 10 player.

    By the end of the day, the only way to make Taufik look "bad" is to compare him to Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan, arguably the two best players of all time. Compare him to anyone else in this era and Taufik will come up on top.
     
    #1163 Giga01, Oct 7, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2012
  4. Loh

    Loh Regular Member

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    Taufik Hidayat Ready to Put Finishing Touches on Successful Career

    Jakarta Globe


    Ami Afriatni | August 15, 2012

    [​IMG]

    This 2004 file photo shows Indonesia's Taufik Hidayat at the Athens 2004 Olympics Men's Singles badminton semifinal. With the London Games as his final Olympics event, Taufik Hidayat is preparing to close the final curtain on his career. The former Olympic and world champion announced his official retirement from the national team and will make a few appearances before ending his long and decorated career at the 2013 Indonesia Open in June. (AP Photo/Vincent Thian)




    With the London Games as his final Olympics event, Taufik Hidayat is preparing to close the final curtain on his career.

    The former Olympic and world champion announced his official retirement from the national team and will make a few appearances before ending his long and decorated career at the 2013 Indonesia Open in June.


    “I’m officially retired from the badminton,” Taufik said on Wednesday, just five days after his 31st birthday. “But I will play in select tournaments as a farewell. I plan to make a memorable farewell celebration in the 2013 Indonesia Open.”

    He will play in the Japan Open, French Open and China Open this year, and next year’s Malaysia Open, All England and Indonesia Open.

    “I have good memories from these tournaments and I have many friends and fans in China,” Taufik said.

    Taking a step out of the spotlight might not be easy and living life after badminton could be harder. But Taufik already has plans for his second act.

    He has been helping to prepare the Taufik Hidayat Arena, a sports hall that is scheduled to be finished in the not-too-distant future in Ciracas, Jakarta. He already used one of eight badminton courts at the arena to prepare for the London Games.

    “I will put all my effort to raise the THA,” he said. “After Lebaran, we will start to look for young players who have talent and offer them the chance to train in my arena. I want to give back to the sport that has already given me so much.”

    Taufik will scout talented players around the country and offer them scholarships and living money. He’s even ready to offer them support to play in tournaments abroad if they are good enough. He will get help from coach Mulyo Handoyo and SGS Elektrik Bandung, his current club.

    Taufik has long been considered one of the most controversial shuttlers in Indonesia. His outspoken manner often landed like a slap in the face to Indonesian Badminton Federation officials, but there was little they could do because he constantly proved that he was the best in the country.

    “I asked myself, ‘Am I ready to leave the sport that gave me many things?’ ” Taufik said. “Badminton has been in my blood throughout my life. Am I ready to retire? Yes, I am.”
     
  5. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    L D vs TH = 6 - 5. L D win in 2001 ABC, 2005 SC, 2006 : TC, Japan, and AG twice. TH win in 2002 & 2006 AG, plus 2004 Ina, and 2005 Spore & WC.
    That's TH's fault. L D improve a lot since 2005, that's why he can dominates the world badminton in MS.
    Losing it from L D in 2006 already...losing it from BCL in 2005, but leading again in 2006, then losing it again. The question is why ?
     
  6. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    What is the point to involving Chen Hong in the comparison between L D and TH ? To make TH not so bad in front of L D ?
    Again, what is the point to involving other player (Peter Gade) when you are comparing TH vs LCW ? How if LCW fans also involving BCL in the discussion ? LCW vs BCL = 12 - 4. LCW vs TH = 13 - 7, and BCL vs TH = 8 - 4. How about this ? TH looks really bad in the comparison, right ?
    how about Chen Long, Chen Jin and BCL ? They also has positive H2H against TH. Even without L D and LCW, I highly doubt TH will be the most successful in this era. The record says it all. The most experienced MS player in major event, but only can win an average 2 titles per year even in his prime.
     
    #1166 Fortune, Oct 13, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  7. Renmazuo27

    Renmazuo27 Regular Member

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    Taufik is definitely not the most prolific in terms of titles, even during his prime. However when he did win them, it was in such a way/style that made him unique. I can't recall anyone who could make the game look so easy due to his playing style or anyone who had a stronger backhand.

    There will always be better players, players who win more titles and more gold medals. That comparison is pointless because we already know who they are. In that right, they themselves are Legends of the game.

    But in terms of personality, and playing style. There will only be one Taufik Hidayat. Regardless of how many titles or medals he won. I respect him for the player and the person he is.
     
  8. Giga01

    Giga01 Regular Member

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    Thank you for the corrections about Lin Dan's and Taufiks head to head in your earlier post! It is much appreciated!

    Why am I not allowed in Chen Hong in the discussion? If you try to compare two players to each other of course you should not only include their head to head versus each other! If you only do that you get all sorts of weird stats. I believe it's important to show(as I wrote) that Taufik had good stats against strong players during his prime, in this example, Chen Hong. Is it not interesting that Taufiks head to head is so immensely in favor of him versus a player that has played 50-50 vs Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei in his career? At least I think it is.

    I included Peter Gade because he is without a doubt a very, very good player. In fact, during his career he has won more matches in total than Lin Dan. Not saying that he is a better player because, he isn't. And such a good player is still only able to win 2 times against Lee Chong Wei? It tells you very much about Taufik to be able to have beaten Lee Chong Wei 8 times.
    I agree with you that you can make Taufik look bad with those BCL stats yes. But you could also turn them around and say that Taufik has beaten Lee Chong Wei TWICE(you forgot to include Asian Games) as many times as Bao. It is very important to include all stats something I tried to do but ultimately it seems like I might have failed.

    I do believe that Taufik will be remembered as the most successful player of this era outside of Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan. I really do. His only challenger is probably Peter Gade. Indeed the record says it all.

    I believe Chen Long is fully capable to recreate and surpass what Taufik has done, he is an extraordinary talent and it feels like he won't have as much "resistance" from other players during his time. Like... He maybe won't have a Lin Dan to his Lee Chong Wei so to speak. But I think that Chen Long is from another era than Taufik . He is in the discussions for the NEW BIG FOUR, he is not trying to take that place from anyone else. You know that Li Yongbo invited Lin Dan, Taufik, Peter Gade and Lee Chong Wei to that tournament before? Chen Long was not included.
    Honestly, I don't know about Chen Jin, seeing as he has won about half of what Taufik has won(about half the titles and half the majors) He will probably be able to play about 4 more years though so I don't think we can have this discussion yet. I think what Chen Jin is able to achieve may depend entirely by how long Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan keeps playing. Also,important point, do you believe that Lin Dan gifted Chen Jin the 2008 All England Title so that Chen Jin was able to get ranking points towards the 2008 Olympics?
    Bao Chunlai has already retired. And he has also not won many individual titles as Taufik , he is a terrific team player though probably on of the best ever(?).
    Their head to head versus Taufik is still very interesting though, but their individual "success" or whatever you want to call it is not as great as Taufik's, yet(Chen Long).

    Please correct me if I'm wrong again.
     
    #1168 Giga01, Oct 13, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2012
  9. Giga01

    Giga01 Regular Member

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    About Chen Long and the New Big Four I meant to say that he is not trying to take the place from anyone in the current big four.
     
  10. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    CH never won World Championships, and not even bronze medal @ OG, also never played in Thomas Cup SF & Final from 2002 - 2006, then what is so special about CH ??? Why CH ? Why not Xia Xianze, Chen Jin or Bao Chunlai ? Surely bcoz you don't want TH looks so bad in front of L D.
    Won more matches, but in the total, L D still the best. L D = +395, LCW = +343, PGC = +369, TH = +269 (the data until OG 2012)
    PGC vs LCW first meeting was happened when Gade already 27 years and 7 months (Malaysia 2004), surely not fair to count. What Peter can do at that age ??? To be fair, we also only count the H2H between TH vs LCW when TH also 27 years and 7 months. And the result is 7 - 1 for LCW, with 5 of it ended in straight sets, plus TH only can score < 10 pts in G1 or G2. That is what TH can do against LCW when he was 27 y.o. really a nice stats.
    Asian Games = unofficial BWF events. And you count it into the H2H stats. How about China Badminton League or World Cup. Count or not count ? BCL beat TH in CBL this year or last year.
    His record is not so impressive
    If CL can win 26 titles during his career, TH/PGC still greater than him ? Don't forget, AG not official title. Should be 23 and not 25 titles that TH ever won.
    4 stars from 4 different countries more interesting to the spectators, compare to 4 stars from 3 countries. The spectators want L D vs TH and L D vs LCW, and not L D vs CL or CJ. It was only another training.
    Yes. Not only 2008 AE, also 2011 Spore. But don't forget, TH never won against CJ in the major event. Not even once. 2-0 for CJ in 2009 & 2010 World Championships.
    TH as the most experienced MS players, surely has the advantages to win more than 23 titles, but he failed. BCL has not the same advantage. And TH won most of the title before L D era (since 2003)
     
    #1170 Fortune, Oct 14, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2012
  11. Jagdpanther

    Jagdpanther Regular Member

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    Giga01, please accept it. You can never win any debate with our Fortune, especially when it comes to Taufik. S/He's one of Taufik's big fan, if not the biggest. Deep inside his heart, he really idolizes Taufik. To the point of obsession, it appears to me. His extensive knowledge of Taufik's H2H record is a proof of that. Indeed, what s/he says about TH isn't quite nice, but... you know... just like when we were little kids, we used to tease, make fun of a girl we like? To imagine Fortune blushing red when he writes all those stuffs about Taufik... Oh dear, that's really cute. Very sweet of him/her. :eek:

    Taufik is indeed a great player. His charisma, his achievements, his moves... Those are what make him able to draw many kinds of fans... and our Fortune is no exception.
    Oh Taufik, how I envy you. :)
     
  12. Giga01

    Giga01 Regular Member

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    What's so special about Chen Hong you say? 13 titles, including 2 All England titles. And was he not a constant top ten player that at some point had the Nr. 1 ranking in the world? Stop trying to downplay what Chen Hong has done to make Taufik look bad.
    Xia Xuanze on the other hand did "only" win 10 titles and the same amount of major ones as Chen Hong , One World Championship Medal medal and 1 All England. His stats vs Taufik is also 2-2 on the BWF site so thas does not really make Taufik look BAD in comparison, seeing as Lin Dan's stats are 5-4 and Lee Chong Wei's is actually behind in the count by 1-2. Chen Hong was ALSO ahead of him by 2-1. So bringing Xia Xuanze into the discussion does not downplay Taufik at all.

    So... Chen Jin has won 1 major and "only" 11 titles, do you think he will be able to match Taufik's record? He has also not won more times than Taufik has vs Lin Dan since you mentioned he has been gifted the win at least 2 times. That makes it 4/6-14/16 in reality vs Lin Dan seeing as we don't know if Chen Jin would have been able to beat Lin Dan during those occasions. , so Taufiks stats might be better than Chen Jins . And Chen Jin vs LCW is 2-10 vs Lee Chong Wei, this time Taufik has much better stats. And Taufik has managed to win vs Chen Jin in a major, the 2012 All England encounter.

    Bao Chunlai's stats vs Lin Dan is 5-20, arguably worse than Taufiks, with the same amount of wins but slightly more losses. And we know that his results against Lee Chong Wei is also worse than Taufiks. His result vs Peter Gade is also worse than Taufiks ( 4-6 and Taufiks are 9-8 according to the BWF site). And again Chen Hong is ahead vs Bao with 5-2 to Chen Hong. All these stats show how great a player Chen Hong was and it only makes it even more interesting that Taufik was able to beat him so regularly . And about all these Chinese players, they never had to face each other in a Thomas or Sudirman cup so their H2H vs Lin Dan might even be worse, or perhaps better? But that is one big IF so yeah, almost impossible to discuss.

    Please scroll down to read what I think about the Asian Games.

    Also, a side note, about major tournaments... World Championship used to be only every other year right? Taufik might have won at least another one if they were an annual event before 2006? And does it not make it easier for players nowadays to win more "majors" than it was before? But yeah, there should not be any "ifs or buts" in sports, it makes arguing about it very hard.

    I do agree with you that the 4 different countries is a important point. But it was more than just another training. It showed what most people think about this era in badminton.
    I think that Chen Long will have it slightly easier than Taufik, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan had but only because he is such a great player , so winning those titles may be easier for him. You really got me thinking about how I rate players there, thank you for that .
    If Chen Long is able to win 25 titles AND those titles include at least 4 majors(preferably one World Championship and 1 Olympic Gold, All England and Asian Games ) or more then yes, he will be as great as Taufik and Peter Gade. But do you agree about that Chen Long will probably be on another level than maybe all other players during his era, and because of that he might even dominate more than even Lee Chong Wei has done? And you do agree with me about Chen Long being from the "new" era right?

    You know that Taufik used to be a much better player before than he has been the last couple of years. Only counting his h2h after he turned 27 is not the same as counting Peter Gade's at 27. Gade's level has not deteriorated at the same pace that Taufik's has. Saying Peter Gade was not able to do anything at age 27 is simply wrong.
    In fact, so late as 2011 when Peter Gade was 34 years of age he still managed to get to 5 super series semi-finals, one final(losing in 3 sets to LCW) etc and he played a 3 set vs Lin Dan at the 2011 world championship . Age does matter for him, of course it does. But his level has never dropped as much as Taufiks did with age . Players get affected by age in slightly different ways. But if we only compare after they both turned 27 it still says that both of them only managed to win 1 time each... And PG has more losses. But I don't think that comparison is fair because of the things I mentioned above.
    So... I don't think I agree with your reasoning . The fact stands that Taufik has beaten Lee Chong Wei 8 times, something most players never will be able to do, including great players like Peter Gade, Chen Jin and even Bao Chunlai, has Lee Chong Wei actually lost 8 times to someone outside of Lin Dan? If not it is another thing that sets Taufik above most other players.

    Yea, I know about the +stats since I mentioned them before. Did you also compare Taufik's +stats to the rest of the players during this era? Because Taufik is ahead of everyone else about the same size that Lin Dan is ahead of Taufik. And if we only use the +stat that shows that Peter Gade is a better player than LCW when we know that isn't the case...

    Are you seriously not including Asian Games now? You yourself included it in the H2H Lin Dan vs Taufik in your earlier post! Of course it counts!
    At worst it is just one step below WC and All England when it comes to prestige. That's the reason all the Asian top players are participating in it. Did you see how happy Lin Dan was when he finally won it in 2010? It was then he had truly won EVERYTHING he was able to win in badminton. Quoting wikipedia: "...by the age of 28 Lin had completed the "Super Grand Slam", having won all nine major titles in world badminton: Olympic Games, World Championships, World Cup, Thomas Cup, Sudirman Cup, Super Series Masters Finals, All England Open, Asian Games, and Asia Championships, becoming the first and only player to achieve this feat.[6][7]" Now way it does not count. You know you only said that to make Taufik look worse. So of course I count it in the H2H and in Taufiks titles.

    The World Cup was only active during 2 years this era. 2005-2006. And yes I count them. Do you have the results from it? Please share it if you want.
    I don't know how seriously the top players think that CBL is. And that BCL have won over Taufik there does not change anything I said, frankly I'm not even surprised that BCL won considering the great team player he is. It still does not change the fact I mentioned about Taufik winning twice the times Bao has over LCW.

    And the last thing is simply not true. Taufik won 8 titles before 2003. And now he has won 25 titles. And to win 25 titles is not bad when those titles include a World Championship Gold medal, 2 AG gold medals and one Olympic gold medal. Bao Chunlai was on court for about 10 years. He won his first title at the 2001 Danish Open,correct? During the following ten years he managed to win "only" 7 titles. Taufik won his first title 1999, and during his following 10 years he managed to win 20 titles. Bao Chunlai has been very unlucky when it comes to his body I think but still he has done nothing to prove that he would have been able to achieve what Taufik has done.
    Again, the only way to make Taufiks achievements in this era look bad in this era is to compare him to either Lin Dan or Lee Chong Wei.

    Isn't Peter Gade the most experienced MS player right now? And he still wasn't able to win more majors than Taufik? He won slightly more titles than Taufik yes. But he never won the World Championship and neither the Olympic Gold, and quality is equally as important as quantity unless we are talking about huge differences like LCW and Taufik were LCW is probably still more successful despite not having won as many majors as Taufik.

    So... wall of text. The conclusion I draw from all these numbers is that Taufik Hidayat is the third best player of this era. Of course he was not without fault and not as a complete player like Lin Dan or Lee Chong Wei . And if you only count his H2H vs some players you may come to a different result, but if you not only compare their H2H vs Taufik but also against other players I still think Taufik comes up on top. But the amount of titles he has won and most importantly THE titles he has won places him above most players in this era with only Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan a step above.

    Please, feel free to correct anything that might have been wrong.
     
    #1172 Giga01, Oct 15, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  13. Giga01

    Giga01 Regular Member

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    One important player I forgot is Lee Hyun-il. He is kinda a "reverse" Chen Hong when it comes to Taufiks stats. His stats are 4-2(Asian games) vs Taufik. And his stats are negative vs other top players. 3-13 vs Lin Dan . 5-9 vs Lee Chong Wei 4-9 vs BCL etc. Worth noting though is that he has faced Taufik MUCH less than the other top players in the world. Still worth mentioning him though.
     
  14. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    Xia only win 9 titles during his carrer, World GP Finals also not count by BWF. But how much titles that CH can win before the "big blow" for XXZ in 2004 ? Only 8 titles. Why "big blow" ? Bcoz Xia was the reigning world champion, but lose the ticket to 2004 OG, despite his ranking is in top 8 (the rule is max 3 MS in top 8 for 2004 OG).
    AE = major title ? XXZ & CH = China player and China looks down to AE :p. mickey mouse title for China but you call it major title ? according to who CH won 1 major title ? hahaha :p. Are you CBA leader ? China & Korea (#1 and #3 the strongest countries in badminton) looks down to mickey mouse title all england. read post #96, 97 and 98 of this thread : http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php/115597-OG12-MEN-s-Singles-Finals/page6
    True. Doesn't downplay TH at all. But why you only involved CH and not the others ? Before the big blow, Chen won less titles than Xia, and never won any major, even until he retire. And before the big blow, @ 2004 TC, LYB / CBA choose Xia to play in SF and Final. Where is Chen Hong ? :p
    Still possible, bcoz he only needs another 11 titles to make it 22 official titles. Remember, TH won 25 titles, but AG and SEA Games not official, so only 21 titles. hahaha :p
    What is 4/6-14/16 ?
    TH stats vs L D / LCW is better than CJ vs L D / LCW, SO WHAT ? Then why TH can't make the better stats vs Chen Jin itself ?
    TH stats vs L D / LCW / PGC is better than BCL vs L D / LCW. So why TH can't make the better stats vs BCL itself ? Hahaha :p. Let me ask you 1 question : what is the point to involved other player when it is useless ? :p.
     
  15. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    Still like that.
    Since 1998 - 2003, what kind of major title that he ever won ??? Add it in 2002, can he win it ? Yes, if he didn't meet China players in fit condition. :p.
    China MS players really a nightmare for TH in individual major events hahaha :p.
    What TH can do most of the times vs L D or LCW ??? What they think about TH recently ?
    CL until 20 y.o. was never played in major events (team and individual). Compare it with TH when 20 y.o. At 17, TH made his debut in 1998 AG team event, at 18 @ WC, and 19 @ OG. Which MS has the chance to make a debut in major event final @ 17 y.o ? Only TH, right ? But once the other MS get the major event experienced, it is easy for them to beat TH, and very easy for the great Lin Dan hahaha
    Read again your post. You said that LCW was greater than TH, despite LCW has never won 1 major title. If CL has 22 official titles, surely CL was greater than TH...plus the fact that their H2H = 4 - 2 for CL. I only use your own argument. Pray hard for TH. If not, CL will surpass him :p
    Not really. An average 2 titles per year even in his prime is not the indication he is much better than before.
    TH start to win over Peter most of the times when Gade was 27 years old. Before that, it is 3 - 1 or 4 - 1 for Gade. If TH lose most of the times, then what the "village champion" LCW can do ???
    In fact, 29 years old TH still can win in rubber sets vs LCW and CL in 2010. Not only played, but also win. so 26 - 28 years old TH has stamina problem ?
    You count PGC vs LCW when Gade was 27 y.o. already, but you count TH vs LCW from 20 y.o. Is it fair ?


    And 7 out of 8 times he beat LCW happened before 27 years and 7 months. More experienced than LCW, surely he can win most of the times. But when LCW get the experienced, it's very easy to handle. So many times TH only can score below than 10 pts in G1 or G2.

    For LCW, relax. In shorther period, he will surpass PGC achievement. But for TH, can he do it another 95 - 100 wins to surpass PGC ??? hahaha :p
     
    #1175 Fortune, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  16. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    I only follow your data. You count AG, of course I do the same. You only count H2H until 2006 (to make TH looks good vs other players), surely I do the same. But, the fact is, AG = unofficial BWF event. BWF not count : AG, SEAG, East AG, World Cup, World GP Finals, Copenhagen Master, Commonwealth and etc.
    Nice statement. But who are you ? BWF's president ?
    L D was happy or not, it won't change the fact that AG = unofficial BWF event.
    That is according to wikipedia. AE & ABC = major titles and China Open not major title. But according to BWF, China = AE, and 2 level higher than ABC :phttp://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14955
    L D vs TH H2H in AG = 3 - 2. If I count AG, it is good for L D. LOL. If we include AG, their H2H should be 16 - 5 (+ 11 for L D), compare to + 10 only (13 - 3) LOL.
    In total, should be 6 - 5 for L D. But I still not count World Cup result, bcoz BWF also not count. World Cup also unofficial BWF tourney :p. One thing also, CH beat TH in 2006 edition, but surely not count.
    TH win in AG 06 also not count if CBL not count. Maybe TH not serious, bcoz he know, even if he is serious, he can't beat BCL in China hehehe
    AG and SEAG not official, so he only won 21 titles. Plus TH won 1 - 2 titles of INA open with the absence of China players. ABC 2000 also, bcoz it is also held in INA. Why ? Safety reason after the 1998 anti China riot. TH won 2004 ABC, and many Chn players doesn't there. Why ? They already qualify for OG 2004, while TH not qualify yet. TH was lucky to have that situation, that's why he can win 21 official titles. If not, no way he can win 20 official titles.
    TH like to compete in lower level tournament such as India open, ABC, US open, Canada open, and etc, that only attract few top MS. That's why he can win 21 official titles during his long career :p. If BCL also attend those tourneys, then no way TH can won it all. Remeber their H2H ? 9 - 5 for BCL. And yes, TH first ever (Open) title in Europe, also his first SS title, came when most of Asian top MS was absent due to AG preparation. Very special achievement for the 3rd best MS in this era (according to your version of course) :p
    We are in the discussion about other players, so we have to wait for the result. No guarantee if TH only below L D and LCW
    OG and WC is just another title. TH won OG without facing China players, and won WC when fight against the extremely tired L D. If you are lucky, you can win major event. CJ is another example. No L D and no LCW, and he won the 2010 WC.
    What is the criteria ? # of major title(s) ? # of title(s) ? H2H ? Win - lose records ? Or what else ?
    TH > CH. CH > BCL. BCL > TH. So according to you, who is better, BCL or TH ? I'm waiting your answer.
    The amount of titles : LCW won. But if we talk about THE titles : TH won. So which is most important ?
     
    #1176 Fortune, Oct 16, 2012
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2012
  17. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    The game look so easy ? Against who ? Against L D ? Against LCW ? Against BCL ? Or against Chen Hong ?
     
  18. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    That's right. I really admire taufik especially when he played against L D in 2006 Japan open, 2010 Thomas Cup, and 2012 Olympics. Very fantastic performance by TH
     
  19. Fortune

    Fortune Regular Member

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    I really like to see L D beat TH and win INA SSP 2013. Revenge for 2004 edition, and also the first title for China in MS since the last 20 years :p
     
  20. limsy

    limsy Regular Member

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    wow
    i saw some fanatic here
     

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