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The 3rd Shot - Help Needed

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by raymond, Mar 9, 2010.

  1. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I have been trying to search in "Techniques/Training" about this topic with "Advance Search" feature. I typed in "Third Shot", "3rd Shot", "first three shots", looking in both content, and in title only, but unfortunately only turn up 1 thread with 3 posts on it. Not very satisfying.

    I'm quite sure that this topic has been discussed many times here. Can anyone help? This is for Doubles, obviously. Thx.
     
  2. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Can you please elaborate on what you want?
     
  3. Carbonlist

    Carbonlist Regular Member

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    he means techniques or methods to hit the third shot of the rally. As in serve, return, third shot.
     
  4. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    ??? that depends on way too many factors to go through them all.

    Depends on who is serving, what the second shot was, who you're playing, their positions on the court, your positions on the court.... etc.
     
  5. satis_kumar

    satis_kumar Regular Member

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    yeah.. agree with you..
     
  6. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I was originally thinking about digging up older threads that already covered this topic.

    But here we go - lets start with a low serve to the center. Afterward, how should the server best prepare for the reply for best attacking chances?
     
  7. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I was originally thinking about digging up older threads that already covered this topic.

    But here we go - lets start with a low serve to the center. Afterward, how should the server best prepare for the reply for best attacking chances?
     
  8. Lordofthefart

    Lordofthefart Regular Member

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    There are still too many factors for example what if your serve was too high what tenancies do you have. Does your opponent likes clear back, drop back, or drive back? Depending on how they like to return is how you will position yourself.
     
  9. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Raymond, in a sport as quick as this one is you cannot rely on set plays. It's all about learning the shots so that they are instinctive, as is the decision on which shot to make depending on the situation. Your reaction speed needs to be as fast as possible.

    Learn your shots first, tactics on which shot to make will come with experience.

    In the question above, I would typically square up to the net with my right foot slightly forward and my racket up around head height (or just over). Then just be prepared to move in any direction. The returner could drop to the net, push to the sides or clear over your head.
     
  10. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    What're mentioned here should apply to all shots in any rally. Then why are there so much talks about the first 3 shots? Why not first 5?

    I'm not a beginner. It's just that I haven't been active on this forum for quite some time.
     
  11. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    Yes, it does apply to all the shots in a rally but the first 2-3 set up whether you go onto the offence or defence from the begining of the point. So the strategy is to go on the offence. The tactics to do so are based on the particular situation.
     
  12. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    I think this is an interesting topic.

    The third shot of the rally is just on the borderline between "set piece" and "general play". There's huge scope for discussion here, so for now it would be useful to know what particular situation you want help with.

    For example: did you serve low, or flick? Was your serve straight down the midline, wide to the sides, or at the receiver? What shot did the receiver play?
     
  13. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    welcome back Raymond:)

    It's a good question and Gollum has got the ball rolling. The answer is "It all depends..." and the most crucial factor is what type of serve you play. Even a low serve has many, many variations which you, as the server can control the reply and therefore you can anticipate to play your 3rd shot.

    Here's one example:
    You low serve from the right side of the court the the T junction diagonally opposite. Do this for two serves.

    For the third serve, from that position, serve out to the tramline with a faster and flatter trajectory. It might be a winner (sometimes!). If not, the opponent has to stretch out wide to receive the shot.

    What is the most likely reply by the receiver?

    It's going to be the straight reply down the side of the court. All you have to do as the server is after the shuttle has left your racquet, you immediately go to a backhand grip and take one step across to the left to anticipate the straight reply.

    There are so many variations of the low serve. Change the trajectory but keep the same direction. Slightly change the angle of direction. Sometimes push it longer and flatter, sometimes keep it short just past the service line. It's best to experiment and that's why having a good serve in doubles is not only having a serve that closely skims the net as it goes over. But also it is one that you can use to pick up the advantage in the rally or even pick up cheap points!
     
  14. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    My question is actually for my own kid who has been training for a few years
    now. She and her partner both have their own coaches, though interestingly
    there isn't much time spent on Doubles rotation, esp. serves and receive (and
    the 3rd shot) in classes.

    They lost a very recent tournament against another good junior pair.
    However, I feel they could win, if only they could adjust a few things,
    including the serve and recieve area. This should be an effective area to
    get productive pay-off. I'm in the process of validating my model before I
    have them spend time practicing them.

    I understand that this could be a "large" topic. That's why I was trying to use
    the "search" function first, but to no vail. The search function returned a lot
    of irrelevant "matches".

    Anyway, here we go. For the serve, they like to low serve wide. This
    creates a problem for them in a recent tournament. Both seems unaware of
    the possible consequence. Naturally, as Cheung pointed out, a straight
    reply could be a problem, esp. to the backhand. Interestingly, the opponents
    for the most part chose to play crosscourt net on a few occasions. They lost
    immediately in those cases.

    My suggestions for them (in addition to explaining the importance of a
    low trajectory) are:

    1. Refrain from serving wide or high/flick. Use these serves as
    surprises only, in order to protect the low serves to the T.
    2. Serve mostly low to the T, but may want to vary the placement along
    the service line to increase difficulties for opponents' anticipation.

    For the wide serve, after reading the last two replies, I think they can have
    the server looking for all net replies, perhaps esp. the crosscourt. The
    back player should be prepared for a push (or low attacking lift) down the
    line.

    Now coming back to the main topic - the low serve to the T. Anyone here
    has experience coaching and watching how juniors (around 11-12 years old)
    play? Naturally, as they're juniors, it's inconceivable that their opponents are
    toeing the service line. They'd have their own limitations in capabilities.
    Furthermore, both my kid and her partner use forehand serves.

    Given this backdrop, how should the front and back player each prepare in
    general? I say in general because they'd need to play some other
    good/strong pairings that come with different styles also.

    If this is still too big a topic, we can focus on the front player first. What
    is the best way to gain an attack (or at a minimum to make it easier for the
    partner at the back)? Assuming the serve is of good quality, I suppose a
    downward fast push to server's body, or to the side, would be rather
    unlikely. Attacking lifts to the side could come. Softer pushes (in order to
    pass over the net) could come. Net (straight or crosscourt) shots could
    come.

    If this is still too general, lets narrow it down even further. If opponent
    is good enough to play half-court return to alley, how should both server and
    his/her partner prepare for this to not lose an attack (or lose a point
    immediately)? My understanding is that, it is the back player's responsibility
    to pick up such half-court pushes. Furthermore, he/she should be aware of
    the possible confusion when the front player attempts to intercept but stops
    short of that.
     
  15. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    I did check your BadmintonBible website for clues. It'd be really good if
    one day you could add some tactics to it. E.g. how about the serve, receive
    and the 3rd shot?:p
     
  16. druss

    druss Regular Member

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    I'll take a shot at this one and we can go further into the more general sense if we get that far.

    First off we need to know their positioning on court while serving. I notice in many cases that the back person is too far back. I see this quite often in juniors and with people that have weak back hands or poor footwork. To be aggressive and play a net, drive or low fast clear you need to get to the shuttle quickly. This means that you need to be farther forward than many back players stand. I typically stand 1-2 feet behind the server in order to get those side drives quickly. This is easier when the server is serving back hand though (definitely something they want to learn soon). This is an aggressive attacking position and only possible if the person at the back is fast enough.

    The front person can definitely make a go for those pushes depending on how good they are but.... it's a risk as they tend to be pretty far out of position and opens up the other side of the net when they do it.
     
  17. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    That's very sound advice. Personally, I'd change the emphasis a little. Serve mainly low to the T, but also try a semi-wide serve to the point where the opponent has difficulty choosing between a backhand and a forehand (a good target is his front foot).

    The flick serve is a good surprise. Use it to keep the receiver "honest" (in case he's gambling on your low serve). Flick serves should mainly be out wide, provided she has enough power to maintain a good height. If not, a good, straight flick will be better than a weak, wide flick.

    The wide low serve (towards the tramlines) should be reserved for occasional use only, as a surprise. Using it frequently is dangerous, as it opens up your court to a straight return. Of course, feel free to abuse it when an opponent is incapable of responding effectively!


    At that age, it would be unusual for the players to have developed really strong attacking returns to a good low serve. Usually the quality of returns lags behind the quality of serve; there's a strong tendency to just lift it. Of course, it does depend on the players and there is a wide range of ability.

    I would imagine they are reaching the serve too late to play shots like downwards drives and pushes. They may be playing attacking lifts, which are really the server's partner's responsibility. They may also be playing net shots from a low position; in principle the server should kill these or play a net shot back, but at that age most players haven't learned much aggressive net play and may be caught napping.

    I would suggest the server focus on looking for net shot returns, and that the server's partner focus on getting to lifts early, and playing a controlled downwards shot (it needn't be powerful). Try to place shots downwards into areas not covered by the opponents (at this point in the rally, that's often the side tramlines).

    It's also worth thinking about whether they should be playing an attacking-oriented game. Most players that age are quite weak in the rearcourt, so a valid alternative may be to try pushing them to the back.

    This assumes that they have not yet started taking on adult mixed tactics. If they have, then replace "server" with "girl" and "server's partner" with "boy", and it should still work. ;)


    Oh, it's very much on my mind. :)
     
  18. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    That's true, for both the serving pair and the receiving pair. The kids
    apparently have no ideas of their on-court positions. The closer distance
    could probably help them to combat the half-court push also. Assuming
    their serves are good enough from now on, a flat fast drive from opponents
    might not be playable, so the further forward position might actually be
    good.
     
  19. raymond

    raymond Regular Member

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    Question on the use of flick serve. Do you just mix its usage with low serve kinda at random? Or do you watch your opponent's feet/body while you serve in order to decide in split second whether you serve low or flick?

    Incidentally, the boy decides to take up the conventional Mixed Doubles serving position, except he's even deeper, as he probably can't cover the deep court return if he stands closer to net. The point is, with this serving position, all surprise elements would probably be lost given the distance. I'm thinking of advising him to serve at the front instead.

    Some of the opponents can play half-court push already (and earn lots of "cheap" points this way from opponents). However, I'm not sure (didn't observe careful enough) if this is because his opponents' serves are of poor quality to begin with.

    I'd like to check on the idea of placing a return to the tramlines. In response to a lift, a smash down the tramline could lead to deep trouble. This maybe unique to forehand side only. Their opponents are capable of driving crosscourt on their forehand side. On their back-hand side, with the relatively flat smashes (because of their body height), it might be harder for them to have enough strength to drive cross-court.

    Which brings us to another point - how the front player should prepare and cut-off the flat cross-court. I find a lot of juniors are standing too close to the net (literally behind the service line).

    If a smash is to be played, I was about to tell them to target the inside of the player ahead, or to center line. This is to remove the cross-court drive reply that typically causes them problems, as well as other benefits. Do use the straight smashes, but use it sparingly, and use it to surprise, much like the cross-court smashes.

    You'd be surprised that some of these players, my kid included, can already do decent smashes (of course nothing compared to adult smashes), and back-to-back (well, the two 2nd back lines) attacking clear.

    One weakness is perhaps in their drives - there's virtually none, even though they can drive when they practice. Just can't use them somehow in games.
     

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