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The sky has finally fallen...

Discussion in 'Chit-Chat' started by ctjcad, Mar 22, 2010.

  1. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The following statistics reveal the depth of despair about the current American healthcare system.

    -Life expectancy of Americans is 77 years of age, the UK 79, Germany 79, Japan 82, and Hong Kong 82.3.
    -Infant mortality rate in the US is 6.8 per 1,000 live births. In the UK it is 5.1; Germany 3.9. Japan 2.8, and Hong Kong 2.9.
    -Percentage of GDP spent on healthcare: US 16%, advanced EU countries around 7% to 10%, Japan 8%, Australia 9%, Hong Kong 5.3%.

    How on earth can America be so inefficient in spending and delivering acceptable healthcare? I will bet my bottom dollar that American healthcare system has had too much of that Wall Street madness in which the poor were regarded as dispensable. That is the reason for such shocking health statistics and at such sky-high costs-the poor were left to die and those that could pay were forced to pay twice or triple the market rate.
     
  2. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    As far as I know US is the only develop country that does not have public health care system until yesterday. From humanity point of view its show a lack of caring to the less fortunates. Those millions of American who could not afford health insurance perhaps already tried their best to improve their living standard but at the end of the day were just not so lucky as the rest that they end up too poor to have a health cover.

    As far as economy and money are concern i think the new health care system is not that bad. An injection towards health care industry is the same as investment to any other industries, it helps boost the economy. Two of the results are; a healthier/more productive work force and more income for those who work in the health industry.

    Now, we can have a great debate about how the govt would fund the project and will it be too expensive etc. Well i can only say that all other develop countries can afford some sort of public health care system, i cant see why US cant afford it. Perhaps Americans should eat less jumbo hamburgers after all.
     
  3. extremenanopowe

    extremenanopowe Regular Member

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    However, its a fact that the cost of health care is going up. Its a matter of how fast it grows. Recently I went for a consultation on a simple procedure. It cost me $4000 for a 5 minutes procedure. I almost fall off my chair and I felt like slapping the consultant for thinking I am an idiot. This is not life threatening procedure. In Malaysia, it can be done with a fraction of the cost.

    So USA is not alone in this. Its the people who consults. They are like leaches. Something have to be done to manage this. Their life is over fed. ;). Its like they are holding patients at their will (or football some says it). The profession is no longer a caring profession. Leaches everywhere. ;) Sorry docs. This is just my observations.

    By the way, I am in singapore. So, my guess on the trend is most, people will move over to Malaysia for medical assistance (if they are smart enough). Some of the hospital in singapore is also moving into Malaysian market. Still the quality may not be that high, but it should be a safe enough for simple procedures which are the majority of it. Only those unfortunate and not aware of such opportunities will have to pay higher cost in singapore. Still due to the quality, rich people from indonesia and other developing countries are flying into singapore for more critical operations. ;) So, its a business.
     
    #23 extremenanopowe, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  4. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    Yes, i don't why either like why people keep flockng to USA and why 11 million illegal immigrants in the US currently demanding US citizenship.
     
  5. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35856395/ns/world_news-americas/

    only when we have free healthcare, free search and rescue, free this and that, Canadians do crazy things. With advance warning of avalanche alert, hundreds still gather for the annual snowmobile fest. I think about 2 doz got killed and injured when the induced avalanche came. Guess what? a couple days later, a bunch of snowmobiliers went back there again and triggered another avalanche. Not sure if there any deaths from the second avalanche.
     
    #25 cooler, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  6. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    The reason is economic. Where the border is porous the poor will move from the poor side to the rich side. Never mind the poor healthcare because to them it makes no difference-they did not get any from where they fled from and neither do they get any in the land they have crossed over to.
    But once they get their citizenship, they will get a real bad deal on healthcare, irrespective of whether they are insured or are non-insurable.
    I have an idea that may be worth a second look. Why can't the US outsource some parts of their healthcare services to other more efficient countries? That should reduce costs and increase life expectancy as well as reduce infant mortality rates for the US. However, I suspect the political will is not there. Your congressmen and congresswomen will not allow that.
     
  7. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    Hi Y,
    1) Even with this bill passed, we still do not have a public health system. Public option is not in the bill. People do not purchase health insurance because a) pre-existing condition which you ask insurance company to loose major money? no go... b) individuals who can not get into a group. They are lumped into a group of unknown risk. They are inherit higher risk and will be charged higher premium based on their risk. c) people think they are low risk and do not need to pay for the coverage and think even at $75 a month, it is too much. Yet, these are the people who cry and scream the loudest because they will die because they are just too cheap to get the insurance. Unless the law is requiring everyone in US to get insurance, this is a bad law.
    2) Insurance company is good at making money. They will find way to make money given any law. If ins comp cannot make money, they will just not sell the product. Guess what, Those people suppose to get coverage, they will have to go to another company and rate will be higher again. This is not a good law again.
    3) Without a true reform that makes everyone suffer. a) lawyer takes cut in fee and tort reform. b) ins company all regulated by 1 agency c) dr and hospitals all take pay cut in payment of 15~20%. or we go with the Great Canadian system d) drug patten cut to 10 yr. e) Everyone has to wait for 1 month+ for any none life threatening procedure unless you pay cash. you can not slow down the health care cost growth.

    This law does not offer any of the fix. You can not just ask one side to suffer and calling them evil. BO is just bad president.
     
  8. wilfredlgf

    wilfredlgf Regular Member

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    Pity them as they lament the downturn of fortunes.

    ... while sipping Chardonnay in their swimming pool from Persian glasses served on Armenian silver trays.

    :(
     
  9. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    Hahaha!! ...and less all-you-can-buffet:D:p Becoming presidents, tackling debts and deficits are boring, more appealing to leave a so-called legacy of achieving something not done before i.e. universal heathcare. Maybe BO really has good intention to initiate universal healthcare or maybe plain political. I think CTJCAD is not against universal healthcare but how to finance this elephant (when the US is currently operating on borrowed money and facing a huge debt and record deficits) and the delivery system that is actually driving up healthcare costs? How long can US continues business as usual raking deficits after deficits for 30+ consecutive years before the mountain caves in, plunging the world into recession/depression, and that I am really concern being neighbours. Just 2 cents thoughts.
     
  10. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    that was discussed in the article i've pasted here.
    Of course outsourcing is a great solution. It is a proven method to reduce costs AND improve quality at the same time. Look at IT, durable good manfacturing, electronics, accounting, engineering and procurement, even foods, are outsourced. Political agenda can be bought and who have the most money? lawyers and doctors comes to mind.
     
  11. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    This is a lively one...

    ..glad to see a few more varied responses:cool:..although at the expense of stealing the thunder out of the other healthcare-related thread..:p

    - The way i see how the bill was passed and the process of how it was done, it's truly an embarrassment. It's filled with corruption (this bill was the one passed in the Senate, end of the yr) which had a corrupt/bribe deal with Sen. Ben Nelson (and he is now planning to vote NO on the final debate, what a jerk!). This is a one-sided policy and the Congress approved it??? I don't ever recall a bill, of this proportional magnitude, ever having to pass Congress without having support from both sides of the aisles (both parties). Even the controversial Social Security Act in the 1930s (and then Medicare) was passed with support from both Democrats and Republicans. That is a good way to solve an issue. Not with this.
    - Prez BO mentioned this bill has the support from the American follks? Not even close. The majority of the population doesn't like this bill (more than 80%). The ones who are jumping up and down with this bill passage are probably 1 or 2 lazy millions who will finally get to have a health insurance. While the rest of the working population has to pay for them. Even the Iraq war, which a lot of liberals, anti-wars, Dems are against (and always blame Prez W), was supported by this same lying Democrats (close to 100 of them). And to make it worse, Princess Pelosi, of all people, even knew abt the intelligence and admitted S.H. had WMD. Yet, now, she discredits what she knew. So, blame everything on Prez W, but the matter is, that war was also supported by this same party who passed this really bad HC bill.
    - The passage of this bill will be the largest expansion of tax ever for the U.S.
    - This bill only satisfies the far left of the political spectrum. Prez BO had to do this, no matter at what cost and at the consequences. Political expediency on his part. Democracy, one asks?..not even close. Just a bunch of behind closed door & under-the-table dealings..Where's the transparency??..
    - In a way, i sort of blame the Republican party for botching this & allowing this to happen. They had control of the Congress but then allowed Princess Pelosi to take over the rein and now we have this bill. But, i guess, this is all destined to be.*sigh*
    - Thank you for your interest; you're free to express your opinion (i know you prefer this instead of the "S'pore Also Can" thread;))...and btw, may you please read the first sentence of the 1st post..:cool:
    It won't get any worse? I hope that's not sarcasm. Unfortunately, my friend, things are not gonna be the same. Everything will get worse. U.S. will become mediocre. And the cost to sustain this will keep on rising. Yes, my friend, that's what you're gonna see and this bill won't fix it.
    - The system needs fixing. No doubt. But it's the approach of how to fix it that is the key. Govt. or universal health care is not the way.
    - There are something in life that the U.S. system offers that is not found on any other country on this planet: individual freedom, at least when it comes to health care. To choose or not choose what you want to get without getting penalized by the govt. You take that away, and where can one go to use his or her freedom to choose? USSR? China? HK? Aussie? Canada? UK? M'sia? S'pore?
    How about if those living in the U.S., who like universal health care move to those countries which offer universal health care and donate their
    money for the taxes..:cool:
    - There is another study (if not mistaken by the U.N.), that shows the U.S. rate of survival in other critical type of health illnesses is way higher than the other industrialized nations. Your stats above have already been known and used a lot and don't paint the general picture of what's going on.
    - I know Prez BO and those who are in support of this have been demonizing the health insurance companies as the cause of rising health care cost. In reality, despite their high premium cost, the insurance companies have done their job in saving lives and in reality, they only profit very little.

    Now, the govt. takes over over, theoretically, and i'm almost willing to bet things are gonna get worse, even more costly and there will be so much bureaucratic process that even poor people are not gonna get the necessary care they need.
    Do you really think the U.S. govt. can do a better job w/this big govt. program?? Not with their history of bankrupting the other social programs.:confused::(
     
    #31 ctjcad, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  12. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    [quote=ctjcad;1401312 re for #31 which I will not copy over...Take a peek at Canada's universal health care cost if US needs a reference check...not that I am complaining since all Canadian citizens and myself are using it...but if the delivery cost is not carefully managed, it cannot be sustained.
    I read that when BO 4-yr term expires, US debt servicing alone hits US$800billion annually, I gets a headache counting the zeroes in that number. CHN and Japan hold the most US debt, so say, US$80B goes to CHN annually. How much does an oil company cost, a skyscaper costs,...? CHN could buy US assets a few a year, economically control US...to me, that is a serious threat to US security. I know, I am preaching gloom and doom here and the sky will not fall, haven't yet.
     
  13. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    ...

    ..thank you for your input:
    - Yes, i know you've been living in great Australia with its "socialized" UK health care system. But the U.S. is different because it offers individual freedom to choose or not to choose a healthcare plan without getting penalty. Now, with this law, young folks, kids, students will have to get a health insurance or pay fine to the govt. What happened to individual freedom? (i know the insurance companies are happy because they will get more customers).
    Humanity point of view that shows U.S. lack of caring to less fortunates? Are you kidding me? Not too brag or anything, but the U.S. has been the only nation in the world that has done more to humanity than any other country in history (at least in the last 100 yrs.). Look at how many millions of donations to worldwide catastrophes have been poured in?
    In terms of lacking care for its own people in the U.S., all i can say is, there are millions of lazy people who don't want to work and only cling on govt. for help like leeches. If they get a job or education to improve their condition, they won't be poor and they'll afford a healthcare. And these are the ones who are in joy with this bill passage. Tell me, are you okay with that?
    But you have to understand, the rising cost is the cancer (no pun intended in this healthcare talk) and will not be fixed with this bill. And worse, premium will stay high if not go higher. This is basically more govt. subsidy. Just a pseudo-patch fix, just like master silentheart already mentioned.
    - Economy wise, it's a wait and see approach. But as i already mentioned, this is another tax expansion on the country (the biggest one ever recorded in the history) and in the long run, the U.S. will be even broker (if that's even a word). And what does that mean with having more tax? Standard of living will be lower, healthcare quality will be mediocre, more govt. intrusion. More jobs? Business who will basically fund all of this (and the healthcare industry) will feel the pinch by paying even more tax.
    - As for the last point: Basically it comes down to you have a choice of a universal healthcare for everyone with mediocre care (like in your great country of Aussie). Or, have a private/free market system (in the U.S.) which allows people to choose or not choose whatever plans they want without getting another shaft from the govt. Who will who knows, botch up your money. Study the Social Securiy and Medicare govt. programs nightmare in the U.S. (see how bankrupt or going to be soon).

    Tell me, which one you prefer? Having the govt. take and control more of your money and decide your healthcare OR you control more and decide for yourself what to do with your money for your healthcare?..if you choose the 2nd one, then i'm sorry, there will be no more of that in the U.S...
     
    #33 ctjcad, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  14. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    - Good sum up:cool:. For those who think this fixes the U.S. healthcare problem>mainly cost control, sorry, NO, it won't.:(...in the next generation, people will look back at this decision and wonder "Are they socialists disguised as Americans?"..:p
    - Nothing but a political expediency on his part. Only to look good and leave a name for himself (only for himself, screw the rest of the people who elected him). Doing it Chicago style politics. What else is new. What a shame.:(
    ..yeah, and the insurance companies bosses will be partying even more with this passage as more and more people will be "forced" to get a health insurance. See who's laughing now if not those who are swimming in the pool and those who will be joining them who are the ones who voted for this??..:eek::confused:
    ..the immigration reform is up next on Prez BO & his selected few Dems socialist agenda..
    ..as i and a few others already mentioned, cost has been, is and will be the problem. And it still won't be fixed. For the short term, maybe we'll see some improvement, but in the long term....................oh my double cheeseburger?!?!..:(
    Future generations will take the brunt of this and if anyone has compassion for the children, they'll understand.

    One more thing to share:
    I met a couple of friends who came from the great Netherlands this past December and they all laughed, shook their heads and asked me "Are you serious? Is BO really going to bring in universal healthcare to the U.S.? Do you know how bad it is as we've seen the effects in Netherlands" All i did was nod and said "Yep"....

    I usually don't like to make a prediction, but if one asks me what i think about the long term effect of this HC bill, i feel, in the long run this will bankrupt the country even more and the system will be broke and U.S. will owe even more (fits perfectly with his name Broke OWEbama). Unless, we get a Prez who'll really take advantage and unleash the U.S.' abundant natural resources and not rely on foreign oil to finance this big entitlement (i'm sure master silentheart knows;)). Why, because as more and more people get comfortable with receiving govt. subsidized health care/insurance (yes, people like free stuff), those people will get comfortable and won't want to change. Pretty soon, if the demand is way too high, where will the money come from to sustain it??.....Just take a look at Medicare, Social Security...

    Anyway, it is what it is and we just have to deal with is (or change it through amendments which is still possible with future Congress)...i just know the almighty one up there is in control..:cool:
     
    #34 ctjcad, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  15. ctjcad

    ctjcad Regular Member

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    I wish..

    ..i wish if the bill that was passed & signed was called The Universal Job Reform Bill..That way, everyone, or nearly all of the unemployed and uninsured medically, and can still work, will get a 1)job and 2)healthcare insurance. 2 problems solved at once & no need for a new healthcare reform bill...*sigh*

    And i am pretty sure, that bill will get a 100% support from the public!:cool:
     
    #35 ctjcad, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010
  16. OneToughBirdie

    OneToughBirdie Regular Member

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    I usually don't like to make a prediction, but if one asks me what i think about the long term effect of this HC bill, i feel, in the long run this will bankrupt the country even more and the system will be broke and U.S. will owe even more (fits perfectly with his name Broke OWEbama). Unless, we get a Prez who'll really take advantage and unleash the U.S.' abundant natural resources and not rely on foreign oil to finance this big entitlement (i'm sure master silentheart knows;)). Why, because as more and more people get comfortable with receiving govt. subsidized health care/insurance (yes, people like free stuff), those people will get comfortable and won't want to change. Pretty soon, if the demand is way too high, where will the money come from to sustain it??.....Just take a look at Medicare, Social Security...

    Agree with you...US is gonna deficit finance this bill and the debt will increase, who ever heard of health care costs ever decline?:eek: only one way to go and that is up and up...this debt will unfortunately be passed onto those who cannot yet vote or still haven't been born yet...like it or not, baby, yours to pay in generation to come....you are correct as long as there are 30+ million Americans happily on the receiving end of this bill, I can't see any future presidential candidate dares to reverse it least it pisses of this group...maybe BO wants this bill to be passed to secure 30+ million votes towards his next term election. Just a thought!;)
     
  17. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Yes, I tend to agree that the new health care bill will not do much to significantly improve America's vital statistics in life expectancy, healthcare cost as a percent of GDP, and infant mortality rate. At best it may stop the rot that would get progressively worse if nothing is done.
    At least, there is someone who has the guts to do something, because doing nothing would only mean that those shameful health indicators or statistics will simply head north.
    How on earth can you defend, comparatively speaking, such shockingly dismal health of a nation with so-called more freedom of choice when there are people who get no health care at all? Of course the rich will want their freedom to choose, not always wisely.
     
  18. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    Something like this, you have to do it right. Because it you don't it will ruin an entire country. This is United State we are talking about. The democratic process works a lot different than the dictator/brain washing rule in china.
     
  19. silentheart

    silentheart Regular Member

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    Give the man a fish, he will be fed for 3 days. Teach a man how to fish, he will never go hungry again.
    My dream is. Make the law that all employer offer medical insurance to worker. If you are a small employer who do not have the number to form a group. Then this group will have power of large number to negotiate a group price to cover the person and household. To have all people in the US want to work has a job. It may not be the best job he/she want. However, the people will have health insurance coverage. If a person do not want to work, he/she is not contributing to this society. Why should my money used to cover his/her insurance? That person is a part of the problem.
    Broke OweBama has all the priorities wrong. Fix the economy first, then you can deal with other entitlements. If you can not feed the people, entitlements will only add burden to the people who is working. You have a shrinking resource while the entitlement grow. He is bankrupting US faster than any leader in the history.
     
  20. Yoppy

    Yoppy Regular Member

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    No country for sick men. Newsweek Sept 28 2009.

    Look Mr. C
    I totally understand that you are there (in the U.S) and Im here (in AU), there are certainly lots of things that we may not understand fully about each other countries. And I appologies if i made any comment thats not appropriate to the situation in the U.S. But the fact is, i quote from Newsweek issued sept 28 2009 "22000 Americans die each year because they lack insurance; likewise, the US is the only develop nation where medical bankruptcies occur" In addition, "US lets some 700,000 people go bankcrupt each year. For me its hard to justify that US has been so helpful to others but cant do anything for thousands of her countrymen that die and bankcrupt each year for the lack of health care.

    I hear these phrases/tones more times when im at Sydney eastern suburb (where I live) where in comparison to the western suburb our average income is higher. Why dont you tell this to the hard working blue collar guys next door Mr. C, Im sure he/she would not be in so much agreement with you. I agree that some people are lazy/bad/dumb/etc, about are all poor people lazy/bad/dumb/etc? Its again hard for me to justify the argument to be used for a reason not to have a public health care.

    I cant really comment fully on this (since i dont have enough knowledge about US economy). For example how deep the US is in the deficit or how much this health stuff will cost. But I just dont believe if anyone tell me that US cant afford a public health care system in place. What is the difference between raising tax for a health care purpose than raising tax to build bridges? No difference. Its a matter of priority.

    Each country have to take its own path in regards to this issue. Let me quote Prof Uwe Reinhart of Princeton "National values and character determine how each system works." As examples, in Germany and Austria health insurance pays for a week at a spa if a doctor prescribes it to deal with stress, in Japan and China doctors do both the prescription and selling of medicine.
    The question is: who is covered? It looks like the U.S was a sole player in this issue. In UK Germany Canada France Japan Etc everybody is covered. If a public health care is not in place, in a place like US, then its likely that some people get the finest medical care while tens of thousand of others left to die for lack of care.
    US pioneers in "Democracy and free speach" where everybody have equal rights, when it comes down to life and death i just dont understand why it took so long understand the concept of "health care for everybody, paid for by everybody". Here in Australia, Medicare (our public health cover) covers for everybody but not everything. Of course the wealthier people can have access to a better health service. But at least, all are covered for the basic needs.
    In the US Declaration of Independence its stated "inalienable rights including a right to life" I intrepet this as an obligation of the Govt to provide a preventive health care for all American citizens. Here in Australia, Medicare (our public health cover) covers for everybody but not everything. The wealthier people can have access to a better health service, fair enough. But at least, all are covered for the basic needs.
     
    #40 Yoppy, Mar 23, 2010
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2010

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